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List of Dead Gods..

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mos_anted's picture
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Re: List of Dead Gods..

Indeed, the deities/base classes section was a bit bland in my opinion, I too was hoping on more info abut it.

Now, regarding the pantheons, I'm no expert, but from what I've read, the civilizations in Ancient ;Mesopotamia, from the Sumerian city-states, to the Assyrian empire, largely worshipped the same pantheon, usually varying whom was the head deity according to whichever city was the most poweful/most influential at the time (i.e., during Uruk's prominence, An/Anu was king of the gods; afterwards, during Nippur's hegemony, Enlil became the ruler; when Babylon rose to prominence, its patron god, Marduk, inherited the rulership of the pantheon after defeating Tiamat), and a slight variation on naming, essentially, the ancient sumerian names (i.e. Enki, Inanna, Utu) and the Akkadian/Babylonian names (Ea, Ishtar, Shamash), so I was assuming it would be a case of "same god, different names".

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Re: List of Dead Gods..

Evil wrote:
mos_anted wrote:

Speaking of which, I've been toying with the idea of unifying the sumerian and babylonian pantheons into a coherent whole (never been to keen in their division as presented in AD&D/planescape canon). Can we discuss this here, or should I start a new thread?

I agree on this, and would try to help you if you started said thread.

Also, I think that humans get extra special treatment when it comes to Powers. I think that either the divine rank of human gods should be lowered, or the deities of supposedly much older (dragons, elves, dwarves, orcs, giants) or more numerous (goblins, kobolds) races get a divine rank boost to show that they have not been lesiuring around all that time they spent as gods. Think about it, here you have the Finnish pantheon that has FIVE Greater powers listed. I look at the elvish list and there is only ONE greater power. Same with dwarves or even DRAGONS. Sorry, but thats just silly. Sure, the Finnish Myth may dictate that their powers are all incredibly powerful, but come on... Powers and clerics exaggerate all the time.
So what I suggest is either decrease the divine rank of most human deities to intermediate and lesser with the exception of pantheon chief, and/or increase the non human powers to a well deserved higher status. I think that deities like Io, Moradin, Corellan, Gruumsh, Shekinester, Ilsensine, Great Mother, Annam, etc, belong to a rank higher than greater, they can said to be "elder powers".
Sorry if the post was irrelevant. The lists above are great Rip. You are unbeliavable.

Thanks for the offer, I will try to start a new thread about it,, and see what comes out.
As for the other deities, I've never given it much thought, but I gathered that, roughly, a god's power derives from it's worshippers, the greater powers beign gods with quite a bit of worshippers, and seeig how humanity is such a prevalent species,, especially compared to the non-human races (we have a real human infestation here in the Prime), I don't find it too strange that there would be several powerful human gods. Now, you could also factor in some kind of pantheon hierarchy, power related. Two examples I've read in different "canon" sources that come to mind: Al'Akbar from Oerth Is arguably one of the most widely worshipped of the Baklunish deities (It's even the official religion on various states), yet the LGG (I think) states that he, being respectful of the "true" gods of the Pantheon, has refused to rise above demigod status, as he cosniders himself their servant, seeing as he could easily enough rise to at least lesser deity level. On the other hand, according to one issue of dragon (cant remember which one) Nomog-Geaya has not risen above lesser status, despite his widespread worship among hobgoblins, beacuse of Maglubiyet's rampant paranoia.
Another thought: perhaps humans are more fervent worshippers than other races, and they "feed" their gods more? What do you think?

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Re: List of Dead Gods..

mos_anted wrote:
Another thought: perhaps humans are more fervent worshippers than other races, and they "feed" their gods more? What do you think?

honestly, that doesn't sound too convincing. I understand from On Hallowed Ground that deities gather power from not just the number of worshippers at any given time, but mostly from petitioners who merge with them. Yes, humans may be numerous, but they are also divided among the countless pantheons, while every dragon who has ever lived believed in the same pantheon. Consider a race like goblins; they may not be too fervent believers individually, but theres so many of them that it is said for a new petitioner to arrive in acheron an old petitioner must perish.
Now, another approach to this would be to assume that human pantheons are worshipped by humans by other races before humans. Kind of like Bast is the deity of felines. For example you go to your Powers realm, and while you are expecting to see humans and perhaps some mythical creatures, you will see that there are many different races that you don't recognise. I think this would be inspiring to the worshipper, because he will realise that his god is actually more widely known that even he imagined.
Which would lead me to my other thought that the number of core playable races in DnD is too low.

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Re: List of Dead Gods..

I didn't make those lists, Evil (I probably would have done them slightly differently). I just reposted them, since the Geocities sites (linked to above) that used to host them are gone. They were made by someone at DiceFreaks.

Part of the reason for the discrepancy between human pantheons and demihuman pantheons is that the demihuman pantheons were all rethought in 2e's Monster Mythology to take into account the new (to the game) intermediate rank, while 1st edition pantheons like the Finnish were transposed directly from 1e Deities & Demigods without any such rethinking. Colin McComb explained why at the Piazza recently: basically, he was under harsh time constraints, and he didn't want to tick off 1st editioners.

You see the same problem with the gods of Toril. The gods of Oerth were all reranked in 2nd edition to account for the intermediate rank (some promoted, some demoted), but most of the Forgotten Realms gods who were given greater status in 1st edition retained that status in 2nd edition, except when there was an in-game reason for a change in status (usually relating to the Avatar Crisis and its aftermath). So Toril has more greater gods than it probably should.

But yeah, it's be perfectly reasonable to demote a lot of Sumerian, Babylonian, and Finnish gods to intermediate status. Or below, if you felt so inclined.

The dragon gods are all of lesser rank in order to match Bahamut and Tiamat. And Bahamut and Tiamat are there in order to match the default status of the various demon lords. I don't see why this couldn't be adjusted either (and on some worlds, they may be more powerful or less - for example, Paladine and Takhisis are greater deities on Krynn, if you want to decide they're the same beings).

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Re: List of Dead Gods..

You know, that's another idea I have toyed with. After all, their alignments and portfolios match, and they are very similar. OTOH, Takhisis is now dead and Paladine is mortal, while Bahamut and Tiamat sit unchanged (ignoring 4e nonsense). Furthermore I like to keep my draconic powers as draconic powers, not that ridiculous "Bahamut is now the main paladin god" (Which i believe that to be the main reason they offed Tyr in the realms). I believe the dragon gods could easily be intermediate powers, while keeping Io as a greater power.

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Re: List of Dead Gods..

ripvanwormer wrote:
The Aztec and North American Indian pantheons don't dwell in the Outer Planes; the former live on the Material Plane, while the latter live in "the Upper and Lower Worlds," which are defined as "demiplanes connected to the Beastlands," whatever that means.
This is a basic facet of actual shamanic cosmology used in native traditions around the world. I studied shamanism in depth for the last year and a half personally, not in any way attached to D&D.

The three 'worlds' or realms of shamanism are the Upper, Middle, and Lower Worlds, which are in some ways similar to a Heaven/Earth/Hell cosmology, but with very different characteristics. The Middle World represents the Earth as a coterminous, coexistent astral counterpart of the real-world Prime, including the dwelling place of elemental spirits and locations of power and universal earth energies. The Upper World is an ethereal realm similar to a cosmological nursery where energies are formed into thought-forms and you can reach deities, angels, guardians, and other powerful beings who have direct access to the universal energies of the cosmos, including space, time, and the heart. The Lower World is the darker spaces, similar in many ways to a shadow realm, but with less disheartening tones and grief-stricken spectres. Here one can meet their totem spirits and animal guardians of great power. When one speaks of the Beastlands as though it is the place where one's primal instincts and archetypal imagery might occur, they are likely thinking of the shamanic aspects of the Lower World and the animal totems that one works with there. It can be a dark, shadowy, and seemingly dangerous place, but a careful shaman will always be able to find guardians to help them on a journey through it, and with the right spiritual tools, they can even overcome many dangerous obstacles posed by the inner demons of their mind and the spiritual energies of others. Shamans travel through these three worlds in order to better understand the nature of illnesses, to gain protection and help from their totems and spiritual guardians, as well as to commune with the powers of nature and to gain those powers for themselves, so that they can better their own community. The ritual practice of shamanic journeying into any of these three realms is often taken up for a variety of reasons, including healing, protection, attaining power, seeking knowledge, understanding facets of a mystery, or seeking divination of various forms. Every aspect of a spiritual being that is met is regarded as it is an entity, an energy, a medicinal component of life, a challenger (as in a contest or duel), a facet of the higher self (the Overmind), and a thread in the greater fabric of reality.

If we were to convert any of these aspects over to the Beastlands/Planescape, it would be easiest to say that these 'worlds' correspond to the three layers of the Beastlands, although the planar aspects of these as defined in the publications to match up well to what they actually mean and represent in our own world. If the Beastlands as a whole was to represent the spiritual coexistence of the Middle World, then a demiplane above and one below would best represent the other two realms.

If necessary, I could write out a variant set of planar stats for these realms to help them be more specific. I would use the stats laid out in Manual of the Planes by WotC. The only issue with these worlds as they are presented here is that unlike the Outer Planes where one inhabits their own physical body in order to travel to and through them is: like the Astral Plane during projection, one moves through the three worlds as an incorporeal creature, where the spirit leaves the body behind on the Prime and travels as a representation of their self.

Hope that helps on this one facet. Eye-wink
-will

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Re: List of Dead Gods..

Edited: double post

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Re: List of Dead Gods..

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OTOH, Takhisis is now dead and Paladine is mortal,

Although "now," as far as most Planescape campaigns are concerned, would be decades in the future. On Hallowed Ground implied that 374 AC on Krynn was equivalent to 1361 DR on Toril. The Faction War happens at about 1370 DR, and Takhisis dies in 419 AC (that is, 45 years later, or about 34 years after the Faction War).

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Re: List of Dead Gods..

On the matter of Takhisis death... assuming she dies, since she was stripped of her godhood before she was killed, would we find a corpse floating in the Astral? Or did she just rot like all common mortals? Would that mean she became a simple petitioner?

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Re: List of Dead Gods..

I think a dead god's corpse really includes all the faith and merged souls that the god once contained within itself, as well as possibly the essence of the realm the god once ruled. That's why a dead god is so huge, even though gods normally manifest in smaller form. Everything that Takhisis was has died, and still deserves a manifestation in the Astral Plane, regardless of what happened to Takhisis the mortal afterwards.

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Re: List of Dead Gods..

All of those Geocities sites were probably saved in Reocities: just change the URL and they should work. At least some of Tiefling's Exultation was saved this way.

You can try this with any Geocities site you're trying to get to, although Reocities hasn't retrieved everything.

Ripvanwormer, thanks for posting those long lists (they aren't preserved on Reocities, either). Is there any way to tell which parts are Planescape canon, which are from other D&D lines, and which are fan-made?)

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Re: List of Dead Gods..

Quote:
Is there any way to tell which parts are Planescape canon, which are from other D&D lines, and which are fan-made?)

Well, I could just tell you, although it might take some time to dissect it all. I don't care much about canon, personally, but I'm pretty good at knowing what it is.

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Re: List of Dead Gods..

The list of dragon kings in the Dark Sun setting looks like it's accurate as far as Dark Sun and Planescape canon goes, though the name "Athasspace" for Athas's crystal sphere is speculative, I think.

The Gray is described as a nonstandard border ethereal in A Guide to the Ethereal Plane, not a demiplane.

The nature of the Black is unknown. The description of it as a demiplane that blocks access to the Plane of Shadow is speculative. Dungeon #110 describes the Black as Athas's Plane of Shadow; by 3rd edition rules, it would probably be connected to Deep Shadow and the shadow-reflections of other worlds.

In The Inner Planes, Athas seems to be connected to the standard Planescape inner planes, so as far as Planescape canon goes I'd ignore the idea that there are four special demiplanes that connect only to Athas. However, the paraelemental planes of Silt, Magma, Rain, and Sun are Dark Sun canon, so this may be a place where the setting canon diverges from the Planescape canon, or the people of Athas may simply be aware of different regions of the Inner Planes than the people of Sigil are.

None of the gods of Azeroth are Planescape canon, of course.

The Birthright gods look canonical.

The gods of dream might count as "other setting canon," since the Region of Dreams is part of the ethereal color curtains in Planescape, not an outer plane as suggested in the Dragon article that those gods came from.

The information on the Eberron gods look canonical, though the Eberron setting was never officially connected to Planescape, so might count as "other setting canon."

The Book of Exalted Deeds gods look accurate, though they're not an official part of the Planescape setting. Phieran is similar to Ilmater, though we can't say more than that. The realm names given are speculative.

Calling the home of the Ghostwalk gods a demiplane is speculative.

The information on the gods of Krynn looks true to Planescape canon, though note that Takhisis dying and Paladine abdicating is something that happens several decades in the future of the Planescape setting.

The information on the gods of Melnibone comes from 1st edition Deities & Demigods, and is probably Planescape canon insofar as it's never been contradicted, though licensing issues prevented them from saying so officially. The demiplane names are speculative, I think, and it might make more sense to place the various beast lords in the Beastlands. The note about the lords of Law and Chaos dwelling on multiple planes simultaneously is canon, and one of the weird things you'd occasionally find in 1st edition Deities & Demigods.

A lot of the planes given to Mystaran Immortals are fanon. I'd proceed cautiously. Some of it contradicts Warriors of Heaven, which as a late 2nd edition source is probably (unfortunately) Planescape canon.

The list of Nehwon gods is from Legends & Lore, though note that Godsland is not part of the Astral Plane; it's a physical part of the world of Nehwon.

Most of what it says about the Greyhawk gods is canon. The planes given for the Olman deities are unofficial, and based on the assumption that these gods are the same as their Maztican counterparts; officially, those gods probably dwell where Deities & Demigods and Legends & Lore said they did, among the stars of a Prime world.

A few of the planes given for lesser Greyhawk deities are inaccurate or based on guesswork. For example, Beltar lives in Carceri, not Pandemonium, and Norebo lives in Pandemonium, not Limbo, according to their original Dragon articles. We don't actually know that Vatun lives in Ysgard (he's currently imprisoned on an unknown demiplane).

All the planes given for the Touv pantheon are fanon. The official word from Sean K. Reynolds was that those gods live on Oerth, similar to 4th edition spirits.

I'm not certain if it's completely cut and dried that the Ravenloft gods are all false, but it could be.

I don't know where the Taltos gods come from, but I think they're all unofficial.

The Forgotten Realms stuff looks canonical, but I'm skeptical about the Kara-Tur gods. I don't know enough about the setting to know if they should really be identical to various Earth pantheons, as many of them are here. I don't think the name "The Empire of Heaven" is official. Ravana's home realm is unofficial, taken from A Tiefling's Exultation (based on Dragon #84, the name of his realm should be Patalam, although it is in Acheron).

Clang might be the same as Moradin, rather than Clangeddin Silverbeard (despite the name).

The various vile gods are probably demigods (like their exalted counterparts) rather than lesser gods. Their home planes are speculative.

The home planes and ranks given for the warrior gods are speculative.

We don't know where A'Gallamiul lives officially; placing him in Raxivort's realm is speculative fanon.

I don't think there's anything official on medusa religion except for the 4th edition idea that they worship Zehir, though it would make sense for some of them to revere Shekinester.

I'm sleepy, and I'm done for now. A lot of the fanon stuff was taken from A Tiefling's Exultation rather than an official source. It would be helpful to look at the gods_list .pdf that Alzrius made to check to see what's official and what isn't. Also, check the Planewalker wiki, where I tried very hard to stick to official lore. It should have entries for virtually all the gods mentioned in Planescape, giving their official realm names if there are any.

Most of the information on the Persian pantheon is from A Tiefling's Exultation, except the Guide to Hell identification of Ahriman with Asmodeus. Whether that can be called "Planescape canon" in light of later contradictory versions of Asmodeus is doubtful. The identification of Ormahzd with Jazirian would be logical, but is purely speculative.

In the end, I don't think it matters much what's canon and what isn't. If it seems good to you, use it, and if you'd rather change it, do so.

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Re: List of Dead Gods..

Holy Cow, I didn't expect you to write it all out, but thanks very much Ripvanwormer!

I like to know sources in general. When I don't know enough about a subject to judge something on its own merits, I'm more willing to accept the "official" version than something random from the internet.

Not that I agree with everything that's official -- some divine alignments and realms just don't seem compatible with real world mythology (which isn't automatically a bad thing, but I tend to dislike it unless it's cool or has an engaging explanation), some realms are incompatible with the god's own alignment, and artificially separating the Babylonian and Sumerian gods is just silly.

Again, thanks a bunch. I know I have that gods list .pdf somewhere.

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Re: List of Dead Gods..

On the Ravenloft gods, I think Ezra might be a real deity. If any of them are, she's the most likely to be. The Morninglord is definitely fake - he is, in fact, the elven vampire Jander Sunstar.

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Re: List of Dead Gods..

Bob the Efreet wrote:
On the Ravenloft gods, I think Ezra might be a real deity. If any of them are, she's the most likely to be. The Morninglord is definitely fake - he is, in fact, the elven vampire Jander Sunstar.

And you base your little fact on what evidence exactly? Sticking out tongue

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Re: List of Dead Gods..

I can't find those Caananite gods on Alzrius' list, and they badly contradict the Babylonian and Sumerian gods, so I hope they're not official.

mos_anted wrote:
Speaking of which, I've been toying with the idea of unifying the sumerian and babylonian pantheons into a coherent whole (never been to keen in their division as presented in AD&D/planescape canon). Can we discuss this here, or should I start a new thread?
Did anyone ever start that thread? I'm not finding it with search.

I'd like to discuss this, hopefully with somebody who knows more about the Mesopotamian gods than I do.

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Re: List of Dead Gods..

Sorry, double post

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Re: List of Dead Gods..

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I can't find those Caananite gods on Alzrius' list, and they badly contradict the Babylonian and Sumerian gods, so I hope they're not official

No, they're from A Tiefling's Exultation. I don't see how they contradict anything, though; they're a separate pantheon.

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Re: List of Dead Gods..

Burning Spear wrote:
Bob the Efreet wrote:
On the Ravenloft gods, I think Ezra might be a real deity. If any of them are, she's the most likely to be. The Morninglord is definitely fake - he is, in fact, the elven vampire Jander Sunstar.

And you base your little fact on what evidence exactly? Sticking out tongue

The bit on the Morninglord is from the novel Vampire of the Mists. While I don't think it's explicit anywhere, it's obvious from the description of the origins of the Morninglord's faith that it's based on Jander.

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Re: List of Dead Gods..

The reason is that, according to Alzrius' list, Ashera, Anat, Yerah/Yarikh, and El are alternate names of Ninhursag, Innana and Ishtar, Nanna/Sin, and Anu, respectively, and that their alignments contradict the official ones. Plus, Enlil and Marduk are listed as alternative names for each other.

However, I don't like the official versions anyway. In my opinion, the Babylonian and Sumerian gods should be the same pantheon and the Caananite pantheon should be separate, except that Yarikh (husband of Nikkal) really does seem to be the same moon god as Nanna/Sin (husband of Ningal). And Marduk and Enlil being the same god seems incorrect. But like I said, I'm not very familiar with the Mesopotamian deities.

I guess I phrased it wrong to say I "hope" they're unofficial. The official material is already self-contradictory, and Yarikh and maybe El are the only two Caananite gods of that list that I'd actually attach to Mesopotamian analogs.

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Re: List of Dead Gods..

Well, Alzrius got his information on alternate names for the Mesopotamian gods from a very early Dragon Magazine article (in Dragon #16), and those identifications have mostly not been made since then. Yeah, it's contradictory. Deities & Demigods and On Hallowed Ground presented the Sumerian and Babylonian pantheons as entirely separate, while that original article had the Sumerian, Babylonian, and Canaanite gods as the same pantheon, known by alternate names. So I wouldn't call the Dragon #16 alternate names Planescape canon, though they're "official" by dint of being in Dragon Magazine.

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