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So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

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Hyena of Ice's picture
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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

but Gates of Firestorm Peak wasn't a Greyhawk adventure
Actually, it was quasi-Greyhawk, much like a lot of 3x stuff (such as Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil)
It was "default setting" which is assumed to be Oerth, but minus the politics and provincial/kingdom geography, essentially.

I wouldn't necessarily assume everything in Elder Evils has a place on Oerth, either.
I don't. However, the section on the history of Father Lymic specifically states that he came through the Vast Gate on Firestorm Peak and was sealed inside a nearby mountain by the Elder Elves. This places it on the same prime world as Firestorm Peak, which is presumed to be Oerth.

On a similar subject, I plan to make a Far-Realm reference index sooner or later, which will include a post that encorporates some of the stuff from Violet Dawn (Dark-Sun-like setting from Inner Circle, but more Cthulhulicious.)
I still haven't finished reading everything on it. Mentioning fluff and the like on Planewalker won't be a problem because (though they haven't released it all yet-- sadly Inner Circle seems to have possibly gone silent for about a year, now) on their site they've stated that the non-mechanics/edition materials from their books has been designated OGL.
Of particular interest to me is the Luminary race, and the books all but flat out state that they're from the Far-Realm (stating that "they have more in common with pseudonaturals and neh-thalggu"), only problem is they have too much of a good theme going (even have a bunch of holy attacks). Still, I like the theme of inimical, alien angel/celestial-like beings. From their description, it appears as though they are beings of antimatter (with the reaction being on a much more player-friendly scale rather than blowing up an entire planet if they bump into someone)

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Hyena of Ice wrote:
Actually, it was quasi-Greyhawk, much like a lot of 3x stuff (such as Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil) It was "default setting" which is assumed to be Oerth, but minus the politics and provincial/kingdom geography, essentially.

I don't want to argue this too strongly, since I want for The Gates of Firestorm Peak and its associated mythos to be Greyhawk canon, and there is actually an argument for it. But Oerth wasn't considered to be the "default setting" for the AD&D game back in 1996, when that module was published. That wouldn't happen until after Wizards of the Coast bought out the company and pro-Greyhawk voices (in particular, Lisa Stevens [who now owns Paizo], Roger E. Moore, and Harold Johnson) got a louder voice. It really stopped being the default setting in 1985, when Gary Gygax left TSR, was officially changed to the Forgotten Realms in 1987, and wasn't anything by the mid-nineties. After WotC bought the company, you start seeing things like Greyhawk gods and races being mentioned in otherwise core adventures and supplements. The Shattered Circle mentions the Suloise, and Bastion of Faith is about Heironeous.

The difference in these two eras is pretty striking, actually. Bruce Cordell's College of Magic was published in 1997, after the buy-out but they were still publishing stuff written at TSR. In that book, the primary god of good is Immotion, goddess of magic and purity, and the main god of evil is Dargeshaad. Neither of them are Greyhawk deities. Bastion of Faith was published in 1999, and though this was supposed to be in the same continuity/series/city as College of Magic and both were written by Bruce Cordell, suddenly it's Greyhawk-specific, with generic Immotion replaced with Heironeous and generic Dargeshaad replaced with Hextor. We know that Hextor was originally intended to be Dargeshaad because in Reverse Dungeon (2000), co-written by Bruce Cordell, the villain Kahabros, who was a servant of Hextor in Bastion of Faith, is said to be a servant of Dargeshaad in Reverse Dungeon.

The setting for The Gates of Firestorm Peak is given in the module as "the Shirelands, at the southern foothills of the Mountains of Frost," which isn't known to be part of Oerth's geography (there's a Land of the Frost Barbarians on Oerth, so you could speculate that the Mountains of Frost are actually the Griff Mountains that run through that land, and the Shirelands would therefore be the Duchy of Tenh, but it'd only be speculation). The Gates of Firestorm Peak actually takes place in the "Cordelloverse," an implied setting that unifies everything Bruce Cordell wrote for second edition (and, to a lesser extent, third and fourth edition). Some of what Cordell wrote is Greyhawk-specific: Return to White Plume Mountain, Return to the Tomb of Horrors, Bastion of Faith, The Shattered Circle. Much of it isn't, and uses non-Greyhawk deities and place names: A Guide to the Ethereal Plane, The Illithiad, The Gates of Firestorm Peak, College of Wizardry, Night of the Shark.

Now, as I said, there are plenty of shared names and crossovers between all these things. The Lost Realm of Olefin is mentioned as the site of the largest city in the Elder Elf empire in The Gates of Firestorm Peak. The now-sunken island chain of Olefin is on the map in Night of the Shark (which doesn't obviously match up with any Greyhawk map). The Illithiad features a presentation from the Olefin Temporal Society, in which a chronomancer accidentally travels to the Far Realm and back. This thread on Canonfire discusses Gates of Firestorm Peak, the Realm of Olefin, and the problems and benefits of setting both in Greyhawk (I post as "rasgon" there).

As I said, there's an argument for linking all of Bruce Cordell's 2e works for Greyhawk, because some of it is obviously Greyhawk and all of it is interconnected. Dargeshaad gets a brief mention in Return to the Tomb of Horrors, the Far Realm is mentioned in The Illithiad and A Guide to the Ethereal Plane, and the Elder Elves are mentioned in Night of the Shark and Sea of Blood. But it involves ignoring the fact that many of these works are plainly not set in Greyhawk, using names of generic gods and places that aren't part of that campaign.

That's true with third edition things too, incidentally. Like, Complete Arcane and Complete Divine both make heavy use of Greyhawk as the default setting with things like Greyhawk gods in Complete Divine and the Suel arcanomach and Duchy of Urnst in Complete Arcane. But Complete Adventurer doesn't use Greyhawk at all, and Races of Destiny invents a few new human gods that don't fit easily with Greyhawk's pantheons. So "default setting" can be hit or miss in both 2nd and 3rd edition.

That said, I think the Elder Elves are ultimately a good addition to the Greyhawk campaign. I'd place them in what is now known as the Sinking Isle and on the mainland, and probably put Firestorm Peak in the Duchy of Tenh (though it could be anywhere, and might make more sense closer to the coast). They definitely precede the war between dark elves and light. We know Kiaransalee was a mortal elf before the fall of Lolth in -30,000 DR, the queen of an entire world, so there must have been a fairly advanced elven civilization during that era. Perhaps the Elder Elves lived some time between then and -18,000 DR. Your theory that the corruption of the Vast Gate led to their worship of the Elder Elemental Eye might have merit, if you assume that elven history on Oerth parallels elven history on Toril that precisely.

The Great Embarkation by Erik Mona is generally considered to be quasi-canon because it was written for the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer but cut before publication. Regardless, it's a fairly interesting story of a war between the elves soon after their arrival on Oerth and the older, reptilian and bestial races that preceded them as masters of the continent. This would have been during the time of the Elder Elves, because Sea of Blood credits the Elder Elves with creation of the sea elves, which is also what "The Great Embarkation" discusses. If this happened during an ice age, it might help explain why the amphibious and reptilian races lost, and would allow us to make the ice age be the time when the reptilian and amphibian domination of the continent ended and the rule of mammals began. After cleansing the Flanaess of the bestial races, the Elder Elves might have turned inward to more esoteric magical exploration, dabbling in chronomancy and planar travel before destroying their civilization with the Vast Gate.

If Father Llymic caused the ice age, however, then perhaps there were two ice ages (the first caused by the Battle of Pesh and the second caused by Father Llymic at the end of the Elder Elf era). That's an interesting possibility I hadn't considered before. The elven wrecking of kuo-toa and quaggoth civilization might have been at some point between those two eras, during a temporary warm spell.

The Elder Elves were the ancestors of the "nomadic high elves" who spread the elven race throughout the worlds, so they must have died out prior to -24,500 DR, when elves first arrived on Toril from the plane of Faerie. The Complete Book of Elves said that the nomadic high elves migrated after the Elfwar between light and dark elves, but this doesn't work with the Forgotten Realms timeline; instead, I might argue that the Elfwar in question was actually the war against the squamous races before the height of the Elder Elf civilization. The gates created by the Elder Elves might have actually been the method through which the "nomadic high elves" spread to Toril and elsewhere; if so, then -24,500 DR (that's -25,870 Lady's Edict, or -23,720 CY in Oerth's common calendar) might be very close to the date of the Vast Gate disaster.

If the Vast Gate cataclysm destroyed several Elder Elf colonies simultaneously, or if it happened in the Feywild rather than on Oerth, it could be blamed for the destruction of Tintageer around -24,500 DR which for all I know fits very well with the Firestorm Peak backstory. Perhaps the Elder Elves created gates leading from Tintageer to Oerth, or vice versa, among many other destinations, and a few centuries later a secret sect in the Mountains of Frost created the Vast Gate that destroyed their entire civilization, forcing refugees to flee to Toril.

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On a similar subject, I plan to make a Far-Realm reference index sooner or later

There was a very comprehensive one on the Wizards of the Coast message boards a while back. I think it's gone, now, but I have it saved. I could post from it here to get the thread started.

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Of particular interest to me is the Luminary race, and the books all but flat out state that they're from the Far-Realm (stating that "they have more in common with pseudonaturals and neh-thalggu"), only problem is they have too much of a good theme going (even have a bunch of holy attacks). Still, I like the theme of inimical, alien angel/celestial-like beings.

I really like the idea of a good-aligned Far Realm race, actually. The plane is supposed to be beyond alignment, but effectively most of the creatures from it end up as some flavor of evil. The idea of a truly alien form of good that has nothing to do with the upper planes is refreshing.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

The plane is supposed to be beyond alignment, but effectively most of the creatures from it end up as some flavor of evil.
The idea of a truly alien form of good that has nothing to do with the upper planes is refreshing.

Indeed. Basically, good/evil/law/chaos do exist in the Far-Realm, but the natives there lack a concept of good vs. evil, law vs. chaos, etc. as we know it, and most do not even recognize good, evil, law, and chaos as concepts.
Also, like I said before, the encorporation of the Luminaries would also requite that the Far Realm include more "realms" than just the Amoebic Sea-- meaning that it is its own alien multiverse (in which case I'd use the Myriad Planes cosmology from 3E MotP, except that since space and time react differently here, the planes wouldn't have to be adjacent to one another to be coterminous)

I'm looking over the stuff in the books (and online), and sadly it's woefully incomplete like a lot of 2E settings. (What's there is really good though aside from the confusion there seems to be between the goddesses Cylethil and Eilithea-- The Avadnu Primer suggests that Cylethil the goddess of one of the moons, but the later books make it fairly clear that Eilithea is the moon goddess, while alluding that Cylethil is the goddess of night.) It's exceedingly difficult to figure out where the Avadnu powers belong on the Great Wheel since thus far only sparse information is given about most of them (there are no clerics and almost no paladins in the Violet Dawn setting, and most of Avadnu's denizens are either apatheist or animist), which does not include alignment. Thus far I've only figured out where three of the 15 Avadnu gods belong on the Great Wheel.

I have to hand it to Inner Circle, their Violet Dawn books are some of the most professional 3rd-party D20 products I've ever seen. So far I've only encountered two mistakes (the one mentioned above, and some of the psionic subtype monsters are missing on the "Monsters by type and subtype" page in Complete Book of Denizens, which is the compiled and most up-to-date 3.5 book for Violet Dawn's monsters) The interior artwork is absolutely breathtaking. My only complaint is their use of the Baldur script for subject titles in some of the earlier books as well as one of their websites (some of the faux elder futhark fonts are a tad difficult to read. Thankfully, they stopped using the Baldur font for the later 3.5 stuff onward)

I'm going to need to read up more on the Xxyth and The Void and see where it would fit in the D&D cosmology (which makes for a bit of a read as the Xxyth are the primary "BBEM" race in this setting, taking the place of fiendish races.) I also find it interesting that they've developed races and monsters that, while physically very different (including abilities), follow very similar behavioral pattens and fill the same ecological niche of major/classical D&D creatures (for instance, the Zeidian clearly fill the same ecological niche as dwarves, even though they are a tall rather than short race *no, this is not bad evolutionary design-- Avadnu has at least 3 separate types of creatures that dig huge tunnel networks through the earth*)

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Oh, man, my Violet Dawn topic (yeah, I'm going to make a topic sooner or later for encorporating Violet Dawn materials into Planescape) is going to be lots of fun. Some things will be difficult however. First of all, the deities of Violet Dawn are much like those in Points of Light in that they had a major impact on Violetspace. OTOH, this may be embellishments of oral tradition, and there are conflicting stories for instance on the sundering and fall of the Daegir (which I believe was intentional due to the atmosphere of the setting). Most accounts claim that the gods sundered the Daegir, while one account states that the Sulwynarii caused the Daegir to shatter into 5 pieces due to overuse while fighting off the Xxyth invasion. There are also conflicting dates for the fall of the Daegir (timeline wise; the dating system for Violet Dawn was never worked out). There are also mysterious beings to ponder, such as Qorinn (all info on Qorinn can be found on the Violet Dawn wiki page, which I'll post a link to when I make the topic; he is clearly modeled after The Lady however, though he takes a slightly more hands-on approach and is more like a cross between The Lady of Pain and Charon. Given his description, he could very well be a similar being to The Lady of Pain, even though he presumably came into being at a far later date.) as well as Temulea himself. From what I can tell (and I need to look for more info in Complete Book of Denizens), Temulea started out being Lawful Neutral, but after discovering the rebellion of his children (the other 15 gods of Avadnu), he went insane, and turned Chaotic Evil. After going nuts and doing some stuff, he pulled an Ulutiu, but his nightmares still fulfilled his will (specifically, his nightmares created The Void, which was meant to "undo" all he created, which he felt had been marred with imperfection.)
Sadly, as of yet I can find no info on the other celestial bodies of Violetspace other than one moon and the twin suns (originally there were twin moons, but one was destroyed when the Daegir fell) and the Avadnians lack any concept of planets other than their own, so it's difficult to tell if some of the mysterious beings from "another plane" that have visited Avadnu in the past but then left were extraplanar beings or aliens.
In regard to the parraelelism mentioned in my previous post, another interesting thing about Violet Dawn is that, while there are humans (as one of the primary 4 races) in Violet Dawn, they, unlike those in most D&D campaign settings (particularly Forgotten Realms/Kara-Tur, Greyhawk, and Kalamar-- and to a lesser extent Eberron) do not reflect the real life races of humans-- the racial makeup of humans on Avadnu is entirely different, which is also refreshing (I don't know how it is in Dark Sun, but I assume this is the case there, as well)

Back to the subject, some timeline questions:
1. Do we have any earlier dates for the existence of humans beyond -14,000DR?
2. Do we have any earlier dates for the existence of dwarves beyond -16,000DR? Certainly they appeared long before that (as this is when their civilization first began to thrive), but I can find no earlier dates.
3. Any idea on when the gnomes and halflings first appeared?
4. How about the orcs?
5. Any idea on the date for the beginning and end of the Titanomachy? (Olympian-Titan War) IRL texts states it lasted for 10 years, though I have no idea if this is reflected in D&D. I'm more concerned with its end and the imprisonment of the Titanes in Orlthys.
6. What about the Gigantomachy? (war with the gigantes, including Typhon, Enceladus, and Porphyrion) If it wasn't merged with the Titanomachy, then I'm guessing about -5000DR since Hercules participated in this war.
--

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Hyena of Ice wrote:
In regard to the parraelelism mentioned in my previous post, another interesting thing about Violet Dawn is that, while there are humans (as one of the primary 4 races) in Violet Dawn, they, unlike those in most D&D campaign settings (particularly Forgotten Realms/Kara-Tur, Greyhawk, and Kalamar-- and to a lesser extent Eberron) do not reflect the real life races of humans-- the racial makeup of humans on Avadnu is entirely different, which is also refreshing (I don't know how it is in Dark Sun, but I assume this is the case there, as well)

There are violet-skinned humans in Vismone, on the world of Chanak from Creative Campaigning, and a race of green-skinned humans on Mystara.

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1. Do we have any earlier dates for the existence of humans beyond -14,000DR?

Possibly. Most sources say that the ancestors of the githyanki and githzerai were originally human before they were altered by the illithids in their tumerogenesis vats. The illithid empire is probably older than -14,000 DR, but this isn't perfectly clear. Githyanki and githzerai probably appeared in Athas around 14,000 years ago (when psionics first appeared), but even given 1,000 years of illithid slavery before that, it's still not earlier than 14,000 DR. Humans first appear on Athas around 14,000 years ago, shortly before the invasion of the gith. If any TSR/WotC source specifically notes humans being around earlier than 15,370 years ago, I'm not aware of it. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, mind you. Brian R. James suggested humans first appeared in the savannas of Katashaka in -34,000 DR, but I don't know if that made it into the published version of A Grand History of the Forgotten Realms or not. The FR wiki doesn't mention it.

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2. Do we have any earlier dates for the existence of dwarves beyond -16,000DR? Certainly they appeared long before that (as this is when their civilization first began to thrive), but I can find no earlier dates.

Not that I'm aware of. I can't find any evidence of them before -12,000 DR, actually, when they're supposed to have formed their first settlements in the Yehimal Mountains.

Oh, actually, they appeared around 14,000 years ago on Athas, at the same time as humans, gnomes, dwarves, and elves.

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3. Any idea on when the gnomes and halflings first appeared?

In Toril, the answer seems to be around -2,758 DR for gnomes (the Silver Age of Netheril, though there's evidence of gnomish artifacts older than that) and -7,800 DR for halflings (when they were brought to Toril by the genies of the Empire of Calim). In Mystara, gnomes were created in BC 2,900 (about 3,900 years ago), though there were gnomes as early as BC 4,000 according to the d20 Blackmoor books (which aren't necessarily Mystara-canon).

Neither race is native to Toril, though, and they may have been around for thousands of years before that on other worlds. Still, they may be relatively young races.

On Athas, gnomes appear around 14,000 years ago. Halflings, in the Dark Sun campaign, are the very oldest race, and were around long before any of the others (which means they were around prior to -14,630 in the Free Year calendar).

14,000 years ago seems a significant time. I'd probably place Spelljammer's Juna, who are credited with seeding many worlds with the standard races, during that era.

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4. How about the orcs?

Orcs were supposed to have been created at the same time as the elves, just after the battle between Corellon and Gruumsh. Corellon's blood brought the elves to life, and Gruumsh's blood did the same for his creations. I'd say at least -31,000 DR, before Lolth's fall.

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5. Any idea on the date for the beginning and end of the Titanomachy? (Olympian-Titan War)

I always assumed this happened around the same time as the war between the Seldarine and the giant pantheon (and that the war between the Aesir and Ymir happened concurrently). I said that was approximately -35,000 DR based on a timeline Grey Richardson made, though it'd be tempting to place the war between the giants and gods simultaneously with the end of the primordial/god war on Toril (-31,000 DR, the same date I placed the Battle of Pesh). It could have been more recently, I suppose.

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6. What about the Gigantomachy? (war with the gigantes, including Typhon, Enceladus, and Porphyrion) If it wasn't merged with the Titanomachy, then I'm guessing about -5000DR since Hercules participated in this war. --

Your mileage may vary, of course, but Mythic Greece from Iron Crown Enterprises has Heracles being born 70 years before the end of the Trojan War (which sounds reasonable to me). The Trojan War ends in probably 1184 BC, which means Hercules was born in 1254 BC. If you assume "today" in the worlds of D&D is the same as "today" in our world based on all the crossovers that Elminster has had, Heracles was born around 3,263 years ago.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

There are violet-skinned humans in Vismone, on the world of Chanak from Creative Campaigning, and a race of green-skinned humans on Mystara.

I know there are alternative races of humans in many settings. What I was trying to say is that in Violet Dawn, alternate human races are the ONLY type that exist in the setting.

Not that I'm aware of. I can't find any evidence of them before -12,000 DR, actually, when they're supposed to have formed their first settlements in the Yehimal Mountains.

Lost Empires of Faerun I think is where I got the -16000 date.

Your mileage may vary, of course, but Mythic Greece from Iron Crown Enterprises has Heracles being born 70 years before the end of the Trojan War (which sounds reasonable to me). The Trojan War ends in probably 1184 BC, which means Hercules was born in 1254 BC. If you assume "today" in the worlds of D&D is the same as "today" in our world based on all the crossovers that Elminster has had, Heracles was born around 3,263 years ago.

Hmm, I thought the Trojan War was Minoan/Neolithic Greece, which would place it as having occurred around 8,000 years ago or something like that.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Hyena of Ice wrote:
I know there are alternative races of humans in many settings. What I was trying to say is that in Violet Dawn, alternate human races are the ONLY type that exist in the setting.

Oh! That's different.

Hyena of Ice wrote:
Lost Empires of Faerun I think is where I got the -16000 date.

Hm, can't find it, but it might be hiding somewhere. Apparently the dwarves of Faerun were originally enslaved by giants (some time during the reign of giants between -30,000 to -25,000 DR) before throwing off their rule and founding their own settlements. So that pushes them back much further. In 4e, the azer are supposed to be descended from dwarves enslaved by fire giants, so if you buy that, presumedly that race would have been created during this period.

Hyena of Ice wrote:
Hmm, I thought the Trojan War was Minoan/Neolithic Greece, which would place it as having occurred around 8,000 years ago or something like that.

From Wikipedia's Troy article:

Wikipedia wrote:
Ancient Greek historians placed the Trojan War variously in our 12th, 13th, or 14th century BC: Eratosthenes to 1184 BC, Herodotus to 1250 BC, Duris of Samos to 1334 BC. Modern archaeologists associate Homeric Troy with archaeological Troy VII.

And in the Troy VII article:

Wikipedia wrote:
Troy VII, in the mound at Hisarlik, is an archaeological layer of Troy representing late Hittite Empire to Neo-Hittite times (ca. 1300 to 950 BC).

Rohl's New Chronology would place the Trojan War about 300 years later than that, but this seems to be widely rejected by other archeologists. Various other alternative chronologies of ancient Egypt might move ancient Greek events back a century or so from what is commonly accepted. But we're talking about myth and legend, here, so I'd just go by what the ancient Greeks themselves thought and not worry about modern archeology. So I went with Eratosthenes' date of 1184 BC, which seems popular.

The original city of Troy (Troy I) is thought to have existed from 3000–2600 BC. The Minoan Eruption is thought to have happened either circa 1600 BC or circa 1500 BC. While there were some Neolithic people in Crete circa 7000 BC, Minoan civilization seems to mostly have taken place during the Bronze Age, lasting approximately from 3500 BC until 1420 BC, when they were conquered by the Myceneans.

That would suggest a much longer period between King Minos and the Trojan War than ancient Greek genealogies of the heroes would support, but this is legend, anyway, and not history. In Greek myth, King Minos I ruled three generations before the Trojan War. Your mileage may vary.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Yeah, it's just a shame that Inner Circle has been seemingly silent since May of 2009 (that's the last time they released any products, as well). I fear the worst, which would be a real shame, because their Violet Dawn setting is top-tier quality stuff-- 3x level mechanics detail, 2E level fluff/background detail, and the art is all WotC-grade stuff (sans some of the art in Tome of Battle. I think that crusader had some sort of serious endocrine *hormonal* disorder...)
You can actually get a fairly good taste of their materials here, on their wiki that they started just before going silent.
http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/violetdawn/wikis

A good taste of their artwork here:
http://www.violetdawn.com/

Since they do rank among the more successful D20 companies, it is possible that, if they did go bankrupt, that they'll be bought out/picked up by another company, but such buyouts tend not to go well when it comes to quality and soul of the product, as those of us here are all too aware.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

So, Rip, have you looked at those Violet Dawn links, yet? If so, what do you think about what you see so far? BTW, I'd love it if you got the three 3.5 Violet Dawn books (Complete Denizens of Avadnu which is the most updated bestiary book, Player's Guide to the Broken Isles, and Broken Isles Lorebook), as I'd love to discuss it with you (in another topic of course, which I eventually plan to create. There are also 4E updates for the bestiary and 3 of the 4 main races of the setting, though I have not gotten a hold of them, so I don't know if there's any new background/fluff material in them or not).

Back to the subject at hand: did the lizardmen come into existence before or after the extinction of the dinosaurs (at least on Faerun)?

Also, when was the gith rebellion?

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Hyena of Ice wrote:
So, Rip, have you looked at those Violet Dawn links, yet? If so, what do you think about what you see so far?

I checked them out. It seems pretty cool.

It looks like the Plane of Doors is pretty close conceptually to the Infinite Staircase, though the hallways part makes me also think of the Plane of Mirrors. The Xxyth seem like they would fit best as Far Realm creatures.

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BTW, I'd love it if you got the three 3.5 Violet Dawn books (Complete Denizens of Avadnu which is the most updated bestiary book, Player's Guide to the Broken Isles, and Broken Isles Lorebook)

I have a PDF copy of Denizens of Avadnu, but not the "complete" version.

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Back to the subject at hand: did the lizardmen come into existence before or after the extinction of the dinosaurs (at least on Faerun)?

Before. They were creations of the sarrukh, according to Serpent Kingdoms, whose first kingdom rose in approximately -35,000 DR and whose last kingdom fell -33,500 DR. Well within the era of the dinosaurs, who seemed to have mostly gone extinct in -31,000 DR.

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Also, when was the gith rebellion?

This is unclear. Here are the various clues and hints that I'm aware of, though.

The current lich-queen is Vlaakith CLVII, so there were 157 queens named Vlaakith including Vlaakith I (the successor to Gith) and the Lich-Queen of the "present day" of A Guide to the Astral Plane, Dungeon #100, and similar works. Of all the queens, Vlaakith CLVII has reigned the longest, for "well over a thousand years."

Dragon #355 gave us some information about the previously undetailed Vlaakith CLVI, the current Vlaakith's immediate predecessor. Like her (presumed) daughter, Vlaakith CLVI had also succumbed to the lure of lichcraft. In the sixth century of her rule, the warlock Xinfyrit led an attempted coup rather than allowing his monarch to devour his soul. Xinfyrit and his followers were defeated, their souls imprisoned, and their bodies were left to drift in the Astral Plane. Xinfyrit's corpse drifted near a color pool leading to the Negative Energy Plane (or conceivably a Prime world dominated by negative energy) which, combined with Astral winds, transformed him into the first of the devourers. Xinfyrit and his legion of devourer apprentices assaulted Tu'narath once again, and Vlaakith CLVI died, Vlaakith CLVII assuming the throne in her place.

So that accounts for 1,600+ years of githyanki history. Let's call it 2,000 years even, adding a century or two to both Vlaakith CLVII's reign and her mom's. Beyond that, it gets more speculative.

The githyanki "starting age" is 21-28 for rogues and sorcerers (going by Dungeon #100 here), so I'm assuming they typically start breeding at around that age. Most githyanki queens seem to be wizards, so I'll use the wizard starting age (24-44) instead. Their average lifespan is 200 years (ranging from 154 to 230), but they can live an unlimited amount of time as long as they remain on the Astral Plane. Still, none of the queens have reigned longer than 1000 years or so, and likely most of them had a considerably shorter reign than the lich-queens. Mechalich suggested that githyanki have a practical age limit despite the timelessness of the Astral due to their mortal brains filling up with too many memories, driving them senile - he has it so that they basically die or have to be retired (technically you could just stack them up in an out-of-the-way room somewhere, since they don't have to eat, drink, or breathe) around 200 years of age anyway, which is probably contrary to the spirit of making the Astral timeless, but helps explain why someone living there would bother becoming a lich. There are other possibilities: maybe she suffered from some wound or curse that required her to become a lich or die, or maybe she thought it was a necessary precursor to divinity. It makes sense that you'd need to be undead or a fiend to gain power from devouring souls; there's a soul eater prestige class in the Book of Vile Darkness, but humanoids don't qualify. Well, whatever. I'll move on.

Vlaakith I took the throne "years after the githyanki claimed the Astral Plane as their home" and continued to rule somewhere between a few months and a thousand years. Her oldest daughter would have likely been 30-75 years younger than her, since 75 years is middle-aged for githyanki. Of course, Vlaakith I lacked the thousands of years of evolution that modern githyanki have benefited from, so she might have had something closer to a human lifespan.

Okay, then. Assuming no maximum age for githyanki who remain in the Astral, Gith's rebellion was 157,000 years ago at the absolute most. That assumes that every living queen reigned for about 1,000 years, Vlaakith CLVI reigned for somewhat less, and Vlaakith CLVII reigned for somewhat longer. That's much too long, I think, to fit with the dates on the rest of this timeline we're developing.

If you assume, instead, that most githyanki queens only live to be around 200, that makes it so that the liches live considerably longer than the others. It seems safe to assume few githyanki are going to breed after middle age, when they would risk aging while stepping into the stream of Time to do the nasty. Assuming most queens breed around the age of 30 to satisfy their responsibilities to the royal lineage and then avoid any planes where time passes thereafter, Vlaakith I might have reigned for 150 years or so and every other queen is only going to ascend to the throne at venerable age after the death of her ancient mother and reign about 30 years before following the last queen into the hereafter. That's about 6,770 years in total. Less than that, to account for cases where a succession of sisters rule for less than 30 years, but I'm going to assume most sisters are about the same age. This, I think, is much too short, but it's probably the absolute minimum if the various queens are going to have time to reach puberty, bear a daughter, and reign a bit before passing on the throne.

So, a compromise. Githyanki queens do typically live longer than their racial maximums would allow on other planes, which is fine, but they don't approach the age of ancient lich-queen. Both assumptions seem true to the spirit of the thing. How do they die? Oh, accidents, assassinations, deaths in battle, weird Astral diseases, senility, or whatever else. Say 200 years on average, or 33,000 years. This would place the events, in our timeline, close to the time of the Battle of Pesh. Placing the illithid empire in the alien epoch when obyriths and Wind Dukes warred makes a certain amount of sense, but placing it afterward, during the earliest part of the present era, might make sense too.

So, a range of about 6,700 years to about 157,000 years ago, from minimum to maximum, with perhaps a preference for around 33,000 years, if our only evidence was the reigns of the githyanki queens. But what other clues do we have?

The Illithiad: "Past all knowledge of present worlds, before the crowning of Ra, when the Outer Planes were yet in flux, and while the elemental planes remained untarnished by counter-contamination, the illithids held an ancient empire." This is ascribed to an in-character text, The Planetreader's Primer. If accurate, that'd place the illithid empire very far back indeed, probably before the Chaos Wars even begin, before the vaati and obyriths began mixing the Inner Planes, and before the obyriths and ancient baatorians. I think that's too far, though, and because it's a quote from a book supposedly published in Sigil, we can assume it's just myth.

A Guide to the Astral Plane offers another in-character text, "a tome of ancient lore" known as A Glimpse Through the Mists. It warns us that it's occasionally suspect and reliant on legend, but "probably more accurate than not." "In a time before most of the prime worlds known today were born, when the gate-towns of the Outlands all went by different names, when beings that could recall days before the creation of then-bejeweled Sigil still existed, the illithids held an ancient empire." The Guide reports later on, outside the in-character portion, that Gith lived "unimaginably far in the past."

In the 77th year of the Eighth King's Age in Athas (that's 13,938 years before the death of the sorcerer-king Kalak of Tyr, which is roughly the present day, or perhaps a decade ago; 13,938 Athasian years is equivalent to 14,310 Torilian years) is the first use of psionics by the races of Athas. The adventure Black Spine suggests a psionic bomb used by the githzerai against the githyanki on Athas was responsible for the development of psionics by the Athasians. "But no one knows for sure." If this is true, though, the githzerai and githyanki would have had to have already rebelled by then.

Over twelve millennia ago (circa -11,000 DR), refugees from the illithid world of Glyth founded the city of Oryndoll on Toril. Gray Richardson assumed that the event that forced these illithids to migrate was Gith's rebellion. To support this, he mentions a theory in A Guide to the Astral Plane (page 46) that Gith may have taken her name from the world from which she originated, and notes the similarity between the names Gith and Glyth. If so, this would be a very specific date, if we ignore the possibility of githyanki and githzerai on Athas 2,000 years before that.

The 4th edition accessory Underdark names the illithid empire Nihilath and says it existed "throughout the first era of mortal history... while the drow still huddled in dark corners and the dwarves dug gold from shallow pits... before the Underdark's geography stabilized... the later great subterranean settlements of the drow, dwarves, and fomorians came into being only when parts of the Underdark stabilized." This is before the drow or dwarves had founded any cities in the depths, yet after the Crown Wars. That places Gith's rebellion sometime between the Descent of the Drow in -10,000 DR and the founding of Guallidurth in -9,600 DR.

The Astromundi Cluster for Spelljammer has a unique origin for illithids that future sources explicitly deny (The Illithiad is particularly dismissive). It suggests that humans are cursed by "dark forces" and start developing mutations before being banished to the Underdark thousands of years ago. They emerge about 1,600 years ago as illithids, and begin a war that climaxes with the shattering of the world into asteroid-sized chunks. More likely, the mutant humans were conquered by illithids from elsewhere and converted into more of their kind through the usual method of illithid reproduction.

Lords of Madness turns all this on its head and states, flat-out, that Gith's rebellion was only 2,000 years before the present day. The illithids arrived from the distant future, conquered the homeworld of the gith races and, after centuries of servitude, the gith rebelled 2,000 years ago. However, as noted above, the last two githyanki queens account for around 2,000 years just between themselves; allowing the previous queens time to reach maturity before giving birth to their successors requires at least another 4,700 years. There were definitely illithids in Oryndoll around 12,000 years ago, so I think the Lords of Madness date has to be ignored. Some have suggested adding a zero and setting Gith's rebellion at 20,000 years ago, which is pretty reasonable.

Lords of Madness does dismiss the extremely ancient dates implied by The Planetreader's Primer (in The Illithiad) by stating that sages confused the extremely far future of the actual illithid empire with the extremely distant past, partially by mistaking The Sargonne Prophecies for a past history instead of a future one. Well, okay, I won't rely on The Illithiad or A Guide to the Astral Plane, which are both pretty vague anyway.

Dawn of the Overmind gives us an idea of how long the illithid empire lasted. "In the millennia of their ascendance, they crafted a suitable seat for their empire. A thousand years of engineering produced the disc known as Penumbra." So at least 2,000-3,000 years between the arrival of the illithids in this timeline and the collapse of their empire after the rebellion of Gith. Penumbra was definitely created in the past, not the far future, since present-day PCs visit it in the course of the adventure.

Okay. That was much more work than I needed to do, but I think I've covered all the available evidence. To sum up:

Gith's rebellion was somewhere between 6,700 years to about 157,000 years ago. The illithids arrived (apparently from the distant future) possibly some 2,000-3,000 years before that.

So there are a bunch of possible dates. The most relevant ones are:

-31,634 DR: Arbitrary date assuming an average of 200 years per githyanki queen, except for the last two. Completely arbitrary, so can't be considered binding.

-18,624 DR: The Lords of Madness date times ten. Pretty arbitrary.

-12,939 DR: Possible battle on Athas between githyanki and githzerai. Unconfirmed.

-11,000 DR: Illithid refugees from Glyth colonize Oryndoll. Conceivably, they're fleeing Gith's rebellion.

-10,000 DR to -9,600 DR: Date range for Gith's rebellion using 4e core assumptions. It's 4e core, so I wouldn't consider it canon for Planescape or the Forgotten Realms, but they're numbers.

-8,080 DR: At the end of the Mindstalker Wars on Toril, illithids enslave the duergar.

circa -1,627 DR: The height of the gith empire of Zarum on Oerth. This is supposed to have been enslaved by illithids until Gith's rebellion freed it, in the Chainmail/Sundered Empire setting.

-631 DR: Vlaakith CLVI assumes her crown (presuming a 700 year reign).

-624 DR: Gith's rebellion according to Lords of Madness (assuming 2,000 years before 595 CY, based on the publishing date of 2005 and equating that to 1375 DR). Basically impossible. The date might be the result of the authors of Lords of Madness mistakenly counting the Zarum date from the Chainmail setting back before the present day, rather than before the Demon Wars about 1,000 years ago.

68 DR: Death of Vlaakith CLVI at the hands of the first of devourers, Xinfyrit (assuming 1,300 years before 128 Hashkar, which equates to 1368 DR). Ascension of Vlaakith CLVII.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

The Xxyth seem like they would fit best as Far Realm creatures.
Not really, in this case, since their origin is pretty clear-cut; they're from The Void, a dimension very close to Avadnu created by Temulea's dreams and will, with the purpose of undoing everything he created (they were created by Temulea for the express purpose of erasing Avadnu and everything on it from existence, since Temula was convinced that it had become marred with imperfection). The Plane of Doors was erected to separate The Void from Avadnu/Violetspace, and, probably, to isolate The Void from the rest of the Multiverse, as well, since the Xxyth are extremely destructive creatures (essentially their goals fall in line with those of Tharizdun and his Doomdreamer cultists.)
I actually have done a tad bit of research on the powers of Avadnu, and there's enough info on Temulea to determine both via fluff and mechanics (e.g. the creatures and prime world he created) that he was originally Lawful Neutral, but after discovering his childrens' betrayal, he went insane and his alignment abruptly shifted to Chaotic Evil before he pulled an Ulutiu. This would, of course, place Temulea's current whereabouts somewhere in the Astral.
I've also determined that Karnn would be on the Outlands (he isn't good aligned-enough to be on the Beastlands for the most part), Irunean is obviously a true neutral power of the Outlands (possibly a greater power with Temulea out of the picture for the most part), and Vérthax is neutral evil and a power of the Grey Waste. The twin sun and moon powers appear to be neutral good as far as I can tell.

Whenever I get back to the timeline, I also need to make the time before Frigidora's birth and promotion to top ranking general/herald much shorter since I forgot that I had that her surrogate frost giant mother and brother were still alive at the time.

I also just realized that I'll have to figure the Kuo-Toa's appearance into what I have written thus far, along with the Sahuagin (the latter I think appeared much later since they're clearly bony fish. In this light, it actually makes perfect sense that the Sahuagin would worship sharks since sharks are a far more primitive type of fish, so in a way it would be like a loose form of ancestor worship.)
I should be able to figure out which epoch the Kuo-Toa would have arisen in since their appearance combined with their physical description makes it clear that they're proto-amphibians which IIRC split from the primitive (scaleless) fish clade. (they clearly possess both amphibian and fish characteristics)

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Hyena of Ice wrote:
Not really, in this case, since their origin is pretty clear-cut; they're from The Void, a dimension very close to Avadnu created by Temulea's dreams and will

You may not have the same nasty habit I have of trying to fit every square peg into Planescape's round holes. I read about the Void and immediately thought, "Oh, that sounds like the Far Realm." Just with a different creation myth to explain it.

Quote:
I also just realized that I'll have to figure the Kuo-Toa's appearance into what I have written thus far, along with the Sahuagin (the latter I think appeared much later since they're clearly bony fish. In this light, it actually makes perfect sense that the Sahuagin would worship sharks since sharks are a far more primitive type of fish, so in a way it would be like a loose form of ancestor worship.)

Bruce Cordell described the origin of the sahuagin in his trilogy of sahuagin-themed adventures (Evil Tide, Night of the Shark, and Sea of Blood). They're actually descended from the anguiliians, a race of eel-people described in The Sea Devils and Stormwrack. A faction of the Elder Elves (known as the Adherents of Vitality, they were investigating the sea because they intended to create the race of sea elves) used a powerful spell to imprison the anguiliian deity during a complex ceremony that was intended to incarnate the demigod in mortal form. Without their god, the anguiliian civilization collapsed. A few of the survivors were drawn to Sekolah, who transformed them into the first of the sahuagin. Another faction of the Adherents was almost definitely responsible for the creation of the malenti. Because the Elder Elves were involved, this was all probably prior to -24,500 DR.

The kuo-toa are undoubtedly older. The Forgotten Realms setting says the kuo-toa were created by the amphibian Creator Race, the batrachi, who rose to greatness after the fall of the sarrukh in -33,500 DR. The batrachi empires fell in -31,000 DR with the Tearfall that they inadvertently caused. So the creation of the kuo-toa (along with bullywugs, dopplegangers, kopru, locathah, sivs, tako, and others) must have been some point between those dates.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

You may not have the same nasty habit I have of trying to fit every square peg into Planescape's round holes. I read about the Void and immediately thought, "Oh, that sounds like the Far Realm." Just with a different creation myth to explain it.

Perhaps so. I do indeed do that to some degree (including the whole "just with a different myth to explain it" part), but I try to conform to the canon when possible, and in this case, it is definitely possible (Plus, I determined that The Void is nowhere near alien enough to be a Far Realm plane.). At one point I had actually considered that perhaps Temulea was originally a Far-Realm power that had embraced the laws and viewpoints of the Multiverse, though I'm moving away from that theory, now. As similar to the Far-Realm creatures as the Xxyth and Voidspawn might be, unlike the Far-Realm creatures, the Xxyth and Voidspawn were created with the explicit purpose of "erasing" an entire crystal sphere-- that they were created to destroy, and "lack a creative impulse", which prevents them from building great civilizations, despite their efforts. This separates them from beings of the Far-Realm. Though now that I think about it, perhaps at some point before going into his slumber, Temulea came into contact with the Far Realm, which was the source of his inspiration in creating The Void and its inhabitants.

Because the Elder Elves were involved, this was all probably prior to -24,500 DR.
Interesting. I'd only skimmed through those books, so I didn't realize they had explained what happened to the Anguillian power. Also interesting that eels are primitive (scaleless) fish. (so we see the whole evolutionary thing here once again)

The kuo-toa are undoubtedly older. The Forgotten Realms setting says the kuo-toa were created by the amphibian Creator Race, the batrachi, who rose to greatness after the fall of the sarrukh in -33,500 DR. The batrachi empires fell in -31,000 DR with the Tearfall that they inadvertently caused. So the creation of the kuo-toa (along with bullywugs, dopplegangers, kopru, locathah, sivs, tako, and others) must have been some point between those dates.
It's good to know that, because I was planning to go in the direction that the Tako and any other race that parraelels the animals of the cambian explosion were among the races created by the Aboleth (and among those which rebelled against it). Going by the FR history you just told me however, most of them occured far later.
That said, it can definitively be stated that the flumph was among the enslaved races (even though it is not explicitly stated in any canonical source, that I am aware of)

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

I tend to think of most of the aquatic and amphibious races as aboleth creations, personally. The Forgotten Realms uses the batrachi, but:

1. It's possible the batrachi (like the sarrukh and aeree) didn't exist on every world.
2. It's possible the batrachi just took aboleth creations and altered them, rather than creating the races out of whole cloth.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Could the Batrachi have been one of the aboleths' creations on Toril?

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Could be! As far as I know.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Double post.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

I just spent the last several hours looking over stuff (partially because I got the Illithid and Aboleth empires mixed up and thought that the aboleth empire only lasted 1000 years >_<)

At any rate, the Aboleth empire clearly begins during the Precambrian, and ends, at the very earliest, in the Carboniferous, though I'm very strongly leaning towards the mid to late Permian-- the arid terrestrial climate during that time would have forced them underground in many areas.
So my theory that the Aboleth created the Batrachians does work under such a timeline, as the first/proto frog fossils occur near the start of the Permian. So if we assume that the appearance of sentient races is connected to the appearance of animals that they resemble, we have the following creatures arising during the aboleth empire:

--Flumph, obviously-- these creatures could have arisen as early as the end of the pre-Cambrian.
--Batrachians
--Anguillians

The Sarrukhs or whatever their names are probably didn't arise until the early to early-mid Triassic.

I just thought of something. It would be interesting if the Aboleth created jellyfish and hydroids for whatever reason, and used the grell as inspiration (hell, the grell could even be the inspiration behind the creation of the flumph)

I need to get to making a Far Realm topic soon, as one of the things planned for that is a run-down of abberations by origin.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Haha. Hyena, I think you've thought more about the history of flumphs than maybe anyone else on this site. And I'm glad for it, they're awesome and I honestly never even thought about fleshing them out. Having them be aboleth creations is great. Laughing out loud

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Okay, this is weird.
The Yuan-Ti according to Serpent Kingdoms, were created by crossbreeding "early humans" with "serpents and sarrukh"..... by the Mhair-Shalk empire in its latter days (around -33,500DR!)
That seems a tad early to me for anything even remotely resembling a simian human....

Any idea on the timeline of the Acaree progenitor race?

I'm also drawing a blank thus far as to what could have caused the realignment of Steam and Dust, as I picture those being in place during the Precambrian, and only becoming as we know them today during the Cambrian (which was the peak of the Aboleth empire)

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Maybe there was no climatological event related to those planes realigning? Steam I could imagine something, but I'm having trouble seeing anything related to Dust in a climatological sense that could even cause that. (Not something that's Prime-wide, at least; something that'd be sort of limited to a single world like a meteor strike is related to Dust, but I can't think of anything that'd make sense for every Prime at once.) So maybe they just sort of got jostled into place when other stuff was moving around, settling into a new position due to metaphysical laws of planar symmetry or something like that. Like a set of cubes in a bucket settling into a new arrangement when you pull two out from the bottom and set them on top.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Quote:
Any idea on the timeline of the Acaree progenitor race?

Immediately after the fall of the Batrachi. The Aeree empires lasted from -31,000 DR (just after the Tearfall) to -30,000 DR. The dragons destroyed their empires circa -30,000.

Quote:
That seems a tad early to me for anything even remotely resembling a simian human....

Yeah, I dunno. Maybe they were around, but not dominant. Maybe time travel. Maybe they weren't around. Whatever.

Quote:
I'm also drawing a blank thus far as to what could have caused the realignment of Steam and Dust, as I picture those being in place during the Precambrian, and only becoming as we know them today during the Cambrian (which was the peak of the Aboleth empire)

I'm not sure what you mean. How do you picture them changing between the Precambrian and Cambrian epochs?

My guess was some kind of increase in the power of negative and positive energy drew several of the former paraelemental planes toward them.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Well, Dust was drawn into Negative and Steam was drawn into Positive, while Water was drawn away from Fire.
I'm thinking that Water's realignment was due to the Oxygen Catastrophe on so many prime worlds, which theoretically resulted in a "snowball earth".
Whereas the actual formation of the Prime Worlds (at least in pop-science) are thought of as being very hot with the whole "boiling seas" thing.
I can't think of a prime reason for Dust going Negative, though.
Actually, I'm thinking both Steam and Dust have to do with the elemental planes becoming coterminous with Positive and Negative.
We know that the whole "there used to be Paraelemental planes of Steam and Dust" originates from the proto-conception of the Inner Planes that Gary Gygax made several years before the release of the 1E Manual of the Planes. We also know that this first conception of the inner planar cosmology lacked Quasielemental Planes.
Thus, going by this logic, one can assume that the Positive and Negative energy planes were not originally coterminous-- perhaps they didn't even exist at all yet.
So, my hypothesis is thus:

The Elemental Planes are created and become full-fledged inner planes. At the same time, the Positive and Negative energy planes form as Ethereal Demiplanes. The energies from these planes mingle with those of the Elemental Planes (even though they are not yet coterminous-- the concept is there) forming the first elementals.
Next comes the Prime worlds, which form over millenia. At the same time, the Positive and Negative energy planes continue to acquire more mass, and the first prime microbes are born.
The Positive and Negative energy planes probably become fully-fledged planes once the microbal population really starts to explode some time before the Oxygen Catastrophe (but not too far before). Since life and death are basic 'building blocks' if you will, the Positive and Negative energy planes ended up as Inner Planes, coterminous with the Elemental Planes. Thus, it was the promotion of Positive and Negative as full-fledged inner planes that started the whole planar realignment. The realignment of Water being opposite of Fire probably came later as a separate (but not entirely unrelated) incident.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

That makes sense. Life and Death don't fully form until the arrival of mortal life.

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I converted the dates back to DR for simplicity's sake. Some more questions:

1. Any idea on the origin of the phaeriim? They're pretty inimical to Toril, so they can't possibly be natural natives, and they like deserts, so I doubt they are uberfailed creations of the aboleth. (I say uberfailed because given their nature, it's obvious they hate the aboleth, as well.)

2. Weren't the Gith created from human stock? If so, that would significantly narrow the timeline for the rebellion, to about -14,000DR at the earliest (I still don't know how to reconcile with the Yuan-Ti being created from mixed serpent/human stock in -33,500DR)

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Okay, as I mentioned in two other topics, I'm working on encorporating the Protogenoi (the race that preceded the Titans) into the Planescape timeline. I don't think it will contradict much because the Protogenoi were around so far into the distant past. The only things I don't like are:

--Nyx and Erebus should be either Chaotic Evil or Neutral Evil, and their divine realms should be on Shadow and Pluton.
--Uranus should be a protogenos, NOT a Titan.
--Uranus did not shun all his other children who weren't Titans, since On Hollowed Ground doesn't take the Protogenoi into consideration and only considers the Titans and Gigantes to be his children.

With that out of the way, here's my idea so far. I need your input, Rip, to ensure I haven't contradicted the canon. I also need info on which were the very first Greyhawk deities, as well as the first Faerunian deities beside Selune and Shar.
This is going to delve into the primordial powers a bit.
I should note that I consider the works of Hesiod to be the default source for Greco-Roman mythology since it is one of the most meticulous as well as one of the oldest sources. You probably know this already, but I mostly use Theoi.com as the Greek myth reference, so if you want to brush up on it yourself you can go there. You will note that, in order to make things more interesting, I have combined elements from later sources as well (some of the Protogenoi were later combined with other deities; for instance, Tartarus/Tenebrous was later combined with Erebus, and obviously it is this very phenomenon in Greco-Roman and other real life mythologies that gave birth to the idea of subsumed/absorbed portfolios in D&D.)

The Protogenoi were the first powers who emerged from creation; all were essentially elementals if we go by their contemporary Greek descriptions (most were physical personifications of nature such as mountains, the sky, the sea, darkness, etc. rather than humanoid beings like the Titans and Olympians. Another feature that denotes elemental-type beings is that the females can all reproduce either sexually or asexually, while the Titans and Olympians are extremely limited in this ability-- case in point, Hera's conception of Hephaestus, which required a full year of prayer, ceremony, and abstinance on Hera's part). The first generation included beings such as Ananake, Chronus, Gaea, Uranus, Pontus, Eros *not the same as Aphrodite's son*, Thesis (slain by the Draeden and subsumed by Metis and Tethys), Phusis, Phanes (a pure positive-energy being and one of the first protogenoi; split into several deities prior to the Draeden war, including Eros, Thesis, and Phusis) and Chaos *let's go with the Hesiod version where she's primordial air rather than primordial elemental chaos*.
Unlike most races of powers, the Protogenoi do not need worshippers in order to survive.
It was in fact, the Protogenoi who warred with the Draedens, in case that was not yet obvious.

I have decided that the Protogenoi shall also include the other primordial powers who first emerged from the Inner Planes as well. This includes Ptah (unless there is something in the canon that contradicts the idea that Ptah was one of the first powers-- and beings to be created in the Multiverse, and that he was created from protomatter rather than the Astral-- I looked up his info in Hollowed Ground, and it suggests the "Eight fathers and mothers of life and light" came before him, but I can't find any results for such beings in Google or Wikipedia) and the four Elemental Lords. All five were among the first-generation protogenoi.

The second generation of Protogenoi included Nyx, Erebus, Oceanus (generally listed as a Titan, but given that most of his offspring were rivers, I think it's safe to assume he is at least half elemental), Pontus, the Ourea (plural), the Nesoi (plural) and Tartarus (Slain by the Draeden; subsumed by both Erebus and Hades while his physical remains created the first significant chunk of Carceri, though Carceri did consist of a tiny prison demiplane ruled by Tartarus before that. His portfolio of imprisonment was never subsumed, hence the nature of the plane-- unless again there is something in the canon to dispute this-- I certainly hope not because I really like this idea.)
The second generation also included the first generation of Titans, borne of Uranus and Gaea. Note that though there is a lot of overlap, Chronus the Protogenos and Cronus the Titan are different beings.

The third, fourth, and fifth generations among Nyx's progency included Aether, Hemera, Thanatos, Hypnos (the only four borne sexually according IIRC to the Hesiod), and the Cacodemons *personifications released from Pandora's box. Technically includes Eris, even though Eris is of a much higher divine rank than the average Cacodemon.* Selune and Shar may also have ranked among them (I believe Selune and Shar would be or were once Protogenoi, though they might be 2nd rather than 3rd generation. It's also possible that they were originally one single Protogenai that since died and whose portfolio was taken by two flesh-based goddesses-- or she could have been split into two kinda like Tymora). Though perhaps not a Protogenos, I believe the World Serpent may have been the offspring of Chronus and Ananke, as the two together personify the Ouroboros. Or perhaps the World Serpent is an aspect of Chronus and/or Ananke. If Boccob was the very first of the Greyhawk powers, then it's likely that he is a son of Chronus and Ananke as well. Ao might also be such a being.

It should be noted that all of the first-generation Protogenoi were borne from the Inner Planes. All were borne either from the Elemental planes or from the Ethereal.

With the exceptions of perhaps Oceanus and Cronus, the Titans were all SORTA borne of the Astral-- sorta. The Protogenoi eventually migrated to the Astral, and from there sought to carve out a dominion in the Outer Void. This is what sparked the war with the Draeden, no longer having any refuge from the creator powers. At this time, even the Yugoloths were not borne yet, though the Baernaloths probably sprang into existence around this time-- I'll have to alter the timeline accordingly.

While the Protogenoi represent the first genetic line (if you will) of the powers, there are also lines completely separate borne of the Astral. They were also primordial powers, but not Protogenoi or Titans-- something separate.

As you might have guessed, the Protogenoi built the 3rd layer of Arborea as their hub before, during, and after the Draeden war. This layer was taken over by the Titans when Uranus was overthrown, though the Titans would not become dominant for some time-- several rival power clans would have to fall, first.

After the Titan war, the Protogenoi of Nyx's clan *including her brother Erebus, her twin sons Hypnos and Thanatos, as well as her other children and grandchildren* sided with Hades and built their stronghold in Pluton-- Nyx's divine realm really should be there rather than Carceri or the Abyss or wherever the canon has her.
Eris and several of her children *mainly the Machai* sided with Ares while Nemesis, Hemera, and Aether sided with Zeus.
Some of Oceanus's children also sided with Hades and Nyx (though I do not believe that Acheron, Lethe, and Styx are primordial beings at all in the D&D canon-- nonetheless it would be interesting to have an actual quasigoddess of the Styx, and likewise a quasigod for Oceanus-- maybe a split off piece of the Titan by the same name. Besides that, Acheron isn't even a river in the D&D cosmology, and Lethe was integrated with Styx.) Any cacodemons (can't remember if there are any that don't contradict Hesiod) borne by Gaea would also have allied with Hades, whom Gaea also has forged an alliance with. I think she probably has an alliance with Kelemvor, as well (this should tell you why I think she solidified an alliance with these two).

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

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1. Any idea on the origin of the phaeriim? They're pretty inimical to Toril, so they can't possibly be natural natives, and they like deserts, so I doubt they are uberfailed creations of the aboleth. (I say uberfailed because given their nature, it's obvious they hate the aboleth, as well.)

The phaerimm seem to have originated in the Underdark, though Anauroch says (p. 70) that some of their race dwell on other planes and worlds.

I don't think they like deserts as such. They turned Netheril into one, of course, but this seems to have been an attempt to destroy it rather than an attempt to remake it in their preferred image. They claimed that some force on the surface world was killing their children and elderly; they mainly wanted to neutralize the Netherese (and everyone else) as a threat rather than move into their territory. The Underdark is their home.

The phaerimm seem to be based very loosely (mostly in appearance, and in their war with flying polyp analogs) on H.P. Lovecraft's Great Race of Yith, who came to prehistoric Australia from another time and planet.

"The beings of a dying elder world, wise with the ultimate secrets, had looked ahead for a new world and species wherein they might have long life; and had sent their minds en masse into that future race best adapted to house them – the cone-shaped beings that peopled our earth a billion years ago." —H. P. Lovecraft, "The Shadow Out of Time"

They could be from the future, too, maybe the same future as the illithids.

If all else fails, they could be Far Realm immigrants.

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2. Weren't the Gith created from human stock?

According to those sources that give their race an origin, yes. 3e and 4e sources have tried to move away from this, but they don't specifically say they weren't originally human.

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If so, that would significantly narrow the timeline for the rebellion, to about -14,000DR at the earliest (I still don't know how to reconcile with the Yuan-Ti being created from mixed serpent/human stock in -33,500DR)

One thing using the Realms timeline as a base does, of course, is massively compact the timescale. I think that humans might well have existed as a minor race in the time of the sarrukh.

An alternative is to take a cue from Robert E. Howard's "The Hyborian Age," which had the Atlanteans devolve into apelike hominids after the cataclysm that sunk their continent and others, and slowly evolve into true humans again over the next millennia.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

What about my questions in my last post? I'll repost just the questions only:

--Would making Ptah among the first generation of Protogenoi and borne from the Ethereal contradict anything in the canon?

--I looked up Ptah's info in Hollowed Ground, and it suggests the "Eight fathers and mothers of life and light" came before him, but I can't find any results for such beings in Google or Wikipedia

--Anything to contradict this?
""Tartarus (Slain by the Draeden; subsumed by both Erebus and Hades while his physical remains created the first significant chunk of Carceri, though Carceri did consist of a tiny prison demiplane ruled by Tartarus before that. His portfolio of imprisonment was never subsumed, hence the nature of the plane-- unless again there is something in the canon to dispute this-- I certainly hope not because I really like this idea.)""

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

I posted some thoughts on the Protogenoi in this thread, including Tartarus, Erebus, Oceanus, Acheron, Styx, Cocytus, Ophion, Eurynome, and Nyx. And some stuff on the children of Pontus and the older generation of muses.

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I also need info on which were the very first Greyhawk deities, as well as the first Faerunian deities beside Selune and Shar.

Well, Pelor and Boccob were supposed to have played a role in Tharizdun's imprisonment, so they're likely very old. If you believe Elder Evils, then Atropus was the first god of Oerth's pantheons.

Lendor is the oldest god of the Suel pantheon, and the only contemporary Greyhawk god that's really explicitly given a creator role (since he created the rest of his pantheon). Most people assume Pelor, Lendor, Boccob, Nerull, Istus, Tharizdun, and Beory are the eldest gods in Greyhawk's human pantheons. Greyhawk doesn't really have an official creation myth apart from the Atropus myth in Elder Evils. Whether Pelor, Nerull, Beory, Lendor et al were actually the first generation to be born from Atropus or not - who can tell? I prefer to think there's at least one generation of lost, dead or retired elder gods between those gods known today and their ultimate creator, but for the purpose of your project it would probably be easier to stick with canonical deities.

The 3rd edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting says, in Selune's description, that Selune and Shar created Chauntea together, as well as the other heavenly bodies in Realmspace. From their struggles were born the original gods of magic, war, disease, murder, death, and others.

So Chauntea, definitely. Selune created the sun-god (a primal version of Amaunator, though earlier in his endless cycle of reincarnation) at Chauntea's request, which started the war between Selune and Shar. Early manifestations of Mystryl, Talos, Tempus, and Talona might have been created from the war between Shar and Selune. Other than that, it's not clear. Jergal is a very old god, but not necessarily the oldest; another god might well have preceded him with the portfolios of murder and death. As with the Greyhawk gods above, though, it may be simpler to just make Jergal the original god of death, since no earlier one is named. Depending on your preference, all the gods other than Selune, Chauntea, and Shar could have been different, but the only real limitation is that no interloper deities were around yet.

I tend to associate Selune with the Greek titan Selene, assuming they might be the same entity.

The World Serpent is arguably a parallel creation myth, known to the Sarrukh long before the Netherese learned of Selune and Shar.

The "eight Fathers and mothers of light and life" are a reference to the Ogdoad, the primal gods of Chaos in Egyptian mythology.

The demon lord Ahrimanes is called "chief of the cacodemons" in Fiendish Codex I. The title isn't otherwise explained.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

The cacodemons have a different definition in most of the D&D canon. I was going with the Greek definition of the Cacodemons-- evil personifications such as deceit, old-age, hatred, etc.

It'll take awhile to read everything you posted in the other topic, but I like the idea that the air-based members of Nyx's family were upset about the matter (which AFAIK would only include her, Erebus, and Chaos). Only problem is that I'd think they'd all have been disposed of for their betrayal for siding with the Draeden (though I suppose it's possible that Nyx and Erebus, both patrons of thieves, might have kept their involvement hidden from the other powers, with only Chaos being blatant about his involvement.)

I also like that you encorporated the titans from The Scarred Lands campaign setting into mainstream D&D-- I was wondering how one might do that.

Also, if we go with the info on Uranus from Vortex of Madness, I'd think he'd be significantly weakened, if we go with the idea that the Protogenoi are elementals. Thus his castration at the hands of Cronus would be symbolic rather than literal (elementals don't have gonads, and besides that it would be pretty damn difficult to castrate a god in the D&D world considering that their sexual prowess is related to their spiritual and divine essense.)

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Whew. I worked on the timeline a bit more. I decided to make The Sundering and The Vast Gate incident occur near simultaneously. I also had to fix the problem that arose with Sun Sing and Crystalle being borne long before the formation of the Quasielemental Planes-- I instead chose to make them into archomentals of Negative and Positive energy, respectively, though Sun Sing starts out as neutral aligned.
What do you think of the timeline now, Rip?

Eventually, I plan to abrreviate quite a few of the entries and then make a separate post giving a more detailed description of several events (such as those between Zaaman Rul and Imix)

Oh, yeah, I haven't posted it anywhere yet, but you know that "powerful artifact" that caused the Tearfall and the last ice age?
Well, remember the Chillsword, that cursed artifact some prime hurled into Paraelemental Magma 40 years prior to Planescape (detailed in The Inner Planes)
Well, the Chillsword was forged with a small fragment of that "powerful artifact". (the artifact, probably an orb or sphere for a Size L or H creature, shattered when it was used by Akadi to beat back the fire-dominant planes. The Elemental Lords and archomentals of air, water, and ice had infused it with so much power that, despite being made from the best quality, flawless eternal ice, the artifact's physical form was no longer stable, and it wasn't able to withstand the vast amounts of power it unleashed.) Also, Cryonax seeks to collect the shards and reforge the thing.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

We've been looking a little harder at elven history in this thread on the Piazza, and I made a list of the various canonical "Elfwars":

Eberron: The drow are enslaved by the giants of Xen'drik in -80,000 YK. The drow become independent after giant civilization collapses in -39,000 YK.

Planescape: The Seldarine leaves the realm of Alfheim in Ysgard and conquers Arvandor, realm of the giant pantheon. The giants flee to Ysgard (Planes of Chaos, The Book of Chaos, page 39).

Threnody: The King of Threnody exiles his queen, Kiaransalee, for the crime of dabbling in necromancy, naming her "drow." Centuries later, Kiaransalee returned with an army of undead; by the time her vengeance was complete, Threnody was a dead world, and Kiaransalee fled to the Abyss to escape the wrath of the Seldarine. This happened before the banishment of Araushnee. (Demihuman Deities, 23)

Planescape: The goddess Araushnee (henceforth known as Lolth) is banished from the Seldarine in -30,000 DR (Torilian time; see Lost Empires of Faerun, page 51). The realm of Svartalfheim in Ysgard is possibly founded at this time, after Eilistraee (whom On Hallowed Ground says rules Svartalfheim) also leaves the company of the Seldarine in penance for nearly slaying Corellon Larethian during the war with the Anti-Seldarine (Demihuman Deities, 13).

The Elder Elves: The Elder Elves, "legendary ancestors of the nomadic high elves," open bridges to a few hundred other worlds. Dissatisfied with this paltry number, they create the Vast Gate, the greatest gate of all, empowered by the Dragon's Tear comet. Three times in 81 years, the Vast Gate opens to worlds of delight. The final time the Vast Gate opens, it opens to the Far Realm, and a terrible Far Realm entity goes through. The entity slaughters the elves and returns to its own plane. Over the years, the Vast Gate opens to the Far Realm every 27 years, allowing Far Realm influences to seep into the mortal world (The Gates of Firestorm Peak, pages 4-5). One of the entities that entered through the Vast Gate, Father Llymic, is said to have been responsible for the last great ice age (Elder Evils, 33). The implication is that the Elder Elves existed on whatever world the PCs live on (the 3e default is said to be Oerth). I don't see any evidence that the opening of the Vast Gate is what led to the destruction of Elder Elf civilization, however.

Elvish homeworld: The unnamed elven homeworld (possibly "Faerie"/the Feywild) suffered an Elfwar between drow and other elves some time after the war between the gods (which Forgotten Realms sources place at -30,000 DR). Nomadic high elves flee to various worlds (apparently the same nomadic high elves mentioned in The Gates of Firestorm Peak). (The Complete Book of Elves, page 11)

Toril: Elven survivors of a war on the world of Faerie enter a portal to Toril in -24,500 DR. The Crown Wars between -12,000 DR and -9,000 DR result in the banishment of the drow in -10,000 DR.

Oerth: A drow attack on the light-elves occurred via a harsh pass in the Crystalmist Mountains.The drow deceived the snow elves, who didn't know about the war yet, into allowing them through. (Dragon #155)

Pyrespace: As detailed in Polyhedron #92, the elves of the world of Perianth banished the drow to their planet's Spider Moon "ages ago."

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Hyena of Ice wrote:
Whew. I worked on the timeline a bit more. I decided to make The Sundering and The Vast Gate incident occur near simultaneously.

That seems a bit early to me, since the elvish race was apparently (unless the myths are wrong, which is very possible) very young at that point; supposedly they were created after the battle of Corellon and Gruumsh, which wasn't too long before the banishment of Lolth is -30,000 DR, which around the same time as the Sundering.

Now, that said, you need time to form an elvish civilization before Lolth's banishment anyway, since Kiaransalee was queen of Threnody before then. And, as I noted in my previous post, there's possibly the whole Eberron timeline to deal with, which places elves and drow over 50,000 years before (assuming the present day of Eberron is anything close to the present day of other D&D worlds). So maybe -31,000 DR isn't too early for Elder Elves to be messing around with dangerous portals at all.

Why did you decide to sync the two events?

I thought the gold and silver elves fleeing to Toril from Faerie in -24,500 DR probably matched the story of the "nomadic high elves" traveling to different worlds in The Complete Book of Elves. And the Elder Elves are the ancestors of the nomadic high elves, according to The Gates of Firestorm Peak. The Complete Book of Elves said they left after the Elfwar between light elves and drow, but since that happened later (in the form of the Crown Wars) in the Forgotten Realms timeline, I thought maybe they were fleeing the Vast Gate disaster (or the ensuing ice age) instead.

That isn't the only interpretation, though. The "disaster" of the Vast Gate seems to have been extremely local in scope, with only the elves around the Gate itself dying immediately. The rumored ice age would be much vaster in scale, and worth fleeing, but might well have been centuries later or longer. Or there might have been a completely unrelated war, perhaps even one between pale-skinned elves and the ancestors of the drow, much longer after that.

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I also had to fix the problem that arose with Sun Sing and Crystalle being borne long before the formation of the Quasielemental Planes-- I instead chose to make them into archomentals of Negative and Positive energy, respectively, though Sun Sing starts out as neutral aligned.

That's possible. It seems like the vacuum gates in the Abyss are evidence that there was something like a plane of vacuum - though it might not have been in the same place - during the early ages of the obyriths.

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What do you think of the timeline now, Rip?

I think it's very long, and not formatted in a way that makes it easy to read (no double-spacing between entries or bold-faced headings), so I might be a while before I get through it completely. There are some fanon bits that I wrote that I didn't expect you to splice in uncritically, and I worry that I didn't make it completely clear which parts of my timeline were canon and which weren't.

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Well, the Chillsword was forged with a small fragment of that "powerful artifact". (the artifact, probably an orb or sphere for a Size L or H creature, shattered when it was used by Akadi to beat back the fire-dominant planes. The Elemental Lords and archomentals of air, water, and ice had infused it with so much power that, despite being made from the best quality, flawless eternal ice, the artifact's physical form was no longer stable, and it wasn't able to withstand the vast amounts of power it unleashed.) Also, Cryonax seeks to collect the shards and reforge the thing.

That's an intriguing idea. The Chillsword also reminds me of Hunger, a magical sword that created an unnaturally frozen glade in the Adri Forest on Oerth, according to Ivid the Undying.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Why did you decide to sync the two events?
They seemed to hold a similar theme in my eyes, and I added an even stronger connection by giving the Elder Elves of Oerth their original motivation for planar gate research-- to find and return to Faerie. Eventually they realized this was impossible, but were enthralled with planar gate science. The Sundering was a result of the Elder Elves of Faerun trying to turn Toril into a new Faerie. I agree with you that -31000DR seems way too early for either event, but that is the date for the Sundering.

That isn't the only interpretation, though. The "disaster" of the Vast Gate seems to have been extremely local in scope, with only the elves around the Gate itself dying immediately. The rumored ice age would be much vaster in scale, and worth fleeing, but might well have been centuries later or longer. Or there might have been a completely unrelated war, perhaps even one between pale-skinned elves and the ancestors of the drow, much longer after that.
The Vast Gate incident may have been local, but it could have had a devastating effect if most of the best planar researchers were present at or near the site. Also, maybe I wasn't clear enough, but my intent was that the true extent of the devastation was a result of so many sages and soldiers going insane, resulting in both a major brain drain, shortage of soldiers, mayhem from their crazed shenanigans-- combined with the amount of resources exhausted to bring the Vast Gate incident and Father Llymic under control.
In addition, don't forget that Father Llymic came out of the gate, so the Elder Elves had to deal with him in addition to the Vast gate rift, their crazy sages, and the rest of the critters emerging from the gate.
Father Llymic is apparently the cause of the last great ice age on Oerth, though this is dated to quite some time later than the Tearfall (and presumably the dinosaurs were already wiped out on Oerth by -30,000DR)

That's possible. It seems like the vacuum gates in the Abyss are evidence that there was something like a plane of vacuum - though it might not have been in the same place - during the early ages of the obyriths.
Vacuum was probably more a property of Negative at the time, much like the glowing crystals found at the Bastion of Broken Souls.

I think it's very long, and not formatted in a way that makes it easy to read (no double-spacing between entries or bold-faced headings), so I might be a while before I get through it completely. There are some fanon bits that I wrote that I didn't expect you to splice in uncritically, and I worry that I didn't make it completely clear which parts of my timeline were canon and which weren't.
Hmm, very well. I will see about double-spacing as well. The length problem will eventually be solved to some degree with "footnotes" so to speak giving a more detailed account of certain events. The story of Imix, Brista Pel, and Zaaman Rul should be pretty good as I intend to delve into (my view at least) of Imix's complex psychology involving his son. I've always planned that the false revelation to Zaaman Rul (from a former servant of Brista Pel) that Imix was Brista Pel's killer was a simple case of bias, jumping to conclusions, and telephone, though it would be intriguing if the yugoloths started the rumor.

I'm also trying to figure out where exactly the Sulwynarii belong on the elven taxonomy; the Violet Dawn books state that they are the ancestral race of the elven subraces, though being neutral good, they obviously cannot be the Elder Elves, and it seems more likely to me that they'd share the same "common ancestor" as the Elder Elves. I can't remember, but weren't the Leshii stated somewhere to be the progenitor race of the elves or something like that?

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Wait, the Sundering was -17600 DR. I had it confused with the Tearfall.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Crap, you're right. I was using the date from Grand History of the Realms (which was citing one of the novels)

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Ugh. Just spent the last 3 hours fixing the date for the Vast Gate Incident, and added more in-depth accounts of 3 events (which I would strongly advise reading at a separate time from when you read the timeline). Also double-spaced the timeline events.

Eventually, I'll have an in-depth description of the Vast Gate incident, which should be interesting. Including that the Vast Gate spill eventually destabilized reality on Firestorm peak, opening more rifts into the Far Realm multiverse, into other planes (the Vast Gate opened into the Amoebic Sea. The destabilization opened up rifts into the plane of Father Llymic and the shivhads) The Father Llymic problem eventually results in Cryonax and Frigidora appearing in person to assist the Elder Elves after Cryonax's lesser minions and even an aspect failed.

Ooh, I'm working on the Protogenoi/Draeden War, and looking at the Greyhawk pantheons. Liga will be the protogenos and first incarnation of Pelor (the Olman are correct that Pelor has gone through 5 incarnations). I'm thinking of making Anti-Liga the Touv goddess Nola, twin sister of Liga. She was slain during the Draeden war, and her dying essence rescued and absorbed by her brother. Even today, Pelor maintains Nola as a separate aspect of himself. As for why none of his nor Nola's clergy are aware of this fact-- even to this day, the death of the twin sister who never left his side is too painful for Pelor to speak of. Thus, even most-- if not all of Pelor's immortal servants are unaware of the fact.
What do you think of my idea, here?

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

I found interesting information about creatures that may be related with the elder elves.
The first are the Sie from the Birthright setting, which lived on Aebrynis before it was separated from the Shadow World. They had incredible innate magic talents, wielding arcane and priestly magic by simple gathering of magical energies, rather than prayers or memorization. When the proto-Aebrynis was split into two worlds the Sie where separated into the faeries(seelie) of the shadow world and elves(sidhe) of Aebrynis. The last surviving Sie became the queen of faeries (she has many names: Titania, Maeve, Mab).
The other are the LeShay of the epic level handbook, who are powerful elf-like faeries who may have destroyed the previous multiverse. I think that in 4e Fr they are identical with the sylvan creator race, and they gated the first (green)elves to Toril.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Hyena of Ice wrote:
Ooh, I'm working on the Protogenoi/Draeden War, and looking at the Greyhawk pantheons. Liga will be the protogenos and first incarnation of Pelor (the Olman are correct that Pelor has gone through 5 incarnations). I'm thinking of making Anti-Liga the Touv goddess Nola, twin sister of Liga. She was slain during the Draeden war, and her dying essence rescued and absorbed by her brother. Even today, Pelor maintains Nola as a separate aspect of himself. As for why none of his nor Nola's clergy are aware of this fact-- even to this day, the death of the twin sister who never left his side is too painful for Pelor to speak of. Thus, even most-- if not all of Pelor's immortal servants are unaware of the fact. What do you think of my idea, here?

It's possible. The Touv gods are supposed to be along the lines of nature spirits (or "primal spirits" in 4e parlance), more closely tied to the Oerth than the gods of the Flanaess. Pelor (and most of the standard Greyhawk pantheon) is explicitly worshiped on more than one world, so he may not be closely tied to Greyspace, though of course Greyspace has more than one world in it. I think if you're going by what's strictly official, Nola and Pelor aren't the same deity; Oerth has other sun-gods, after all, including Pholtus (whose portfolio includes the sun and the moons), Lydia (the Suel goddess of light), the various Olman sun gods (Tezcatlipoca, Quetzalcoatl, Tlaloc, Chalchihuitlicue, and Tonatiuh) and possibly Araleth Letheranil, the elven god of light. Are they all the same?

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Quote:
The first are the Sie from the Birthright setting, which lived on Aebrynis before it was separated from the Shadow World. They had incredible innate magic talents, wielding arcane and priestly magic by simple gathering of magical energies, rather than prayers or memorization. When the proto-Aebrynis was split into two worlds the Sie where separated into the faeries(seelie) of the shadow world and elves(sidhe) of Aebrynis. The last surviving Sie became the queen of faeries (she has many names: Titania, Maeve, Mab). The other are the LeShay of the epic level handbook, who are powerful elf-like faeries who may have destroyed the previous multiverse. I think that in 4e Fr they are identical with the sylvan creator race, and they gated the first (green)elves to Toril.

I get the impression from The Gates of Firestorm Peak and the sahuagin trilogy that the elder elves are simply the elves that preceded the Elfwar, after which the nomadic high elves traveling to the various worlds of the Material Plane. The Epic Level Handbook says "as elves are to humans, so the leShay are to the elves" which makes them seem like another kind of being altogether. They might well be the same or related to Birthright's Sie.

4th edition Forgotten Realms does indeed identify the leShay with the fey creator race (in Dragon #376, for example).

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

I think if you're going by what's strictly official, Nola and Pelor aren't the same deity; Oerth has other sun-gods, after all, including Pholtus (whose portfolio includes the sun and the moons), Lydia (the Suel goddess of light), the various Olman sun gods (Tezcatlipoca, Quetzalcoatl, Tlaloc, Chalchihuitlicue, and Tonatiuh) and possibly Araleth Letheranil, the elven god of light. Are they all the same?
No, of course not. First of all, the Olmec gods are from the Mesoamerican pantheons, so of course they're not physically tied to Oerth's sun.
I had originally intended for Pelor, Pholtus, and Lydia to be shattered reincarnations of Liga, but this did not work since Pholtus and Lydia also represent the moons.
I also considered making Pholtus and Lydia later incarnations of Celene and Luna, though this would be difficult to explain since their portfolios now also includes the sun (plus Pholtus's nature doesn't exactly fit a moon what with its phases and all).
I also intend for there to have originally been a protogenos for every celestial body in the main 3 crystal spheres.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Major update.

Reading through 4th edition's Demonomicon and Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, the time of the Battle of Pesh is actually pretty clear. It's actually around -35,000 DR, at the very end of the Epoch of Shadow, which is when the primordials were imprisoned and the Dawn War ended. Demonomicon explicitly connects the Battle of Pesh to the end of the Dawn War, so this is when it should be. The Tearfall, millennia later, is when the batrachi summon an already-imprisoned primordial. So the Dawn War is long over by then.

Also, the novel Dawn of Night by Paul S. Kemp includes a character, "young for a githvyrik," who was around shortly after Gith's rebellion and is said to be 10,000 years old. Assuming this is a rough estimate, that still means that the rebellion must've happened roughly 10,000 years ago. I think associating it with the illithid refugees settling Oryndoll 12,000 years ago is a good compromise. 4th edition's Underdark says the drow had already descended (barely) at the time of the illithid empire's fall but whatever, that's stupid. Better to sync the event with something concrete.

So here's a revised timeline:

*Waves of possibility collide in the Ethereal Plane, forming solid ether and demiplanes. Eventually the Prime Material Plane forms, so long ago that years are insufficient to measure it (A Guide to the Ethereal Plane, 9).

*According to myth, Chaos is the first force to form. Law arises to combat it (FC2, 4).

*The conflict between Law and Chaos boils over from the Inner Planes to the still-forming Outer and Material Planes (FC1, 106).

*The obyriths push a shard of pure evil from a dying universe into the current multiverse (Demonomicon, 7).

*Good wrestles with Evil, and Law with Chaos, and Neutrality lies between. None of the five forces can gain an advantage, so they create minions to serve them. Evil creates the baernaloths, while Good, Neutrality, Law, and Chaos create their own servitors to fight for them (Hellbound: The Dark of the War, page Cool. The champions of Law include Asmodeus (FC2, 4). Asmodeus is initially known as Ahriman, and his twin is known as Jazirian (Guide to Hell, 2). Jazirian and Ahriman create the Outlands, the Unity of Rings, the Rule of Threes, and the Center of All precepts (GtH, 2). The powers of creation (Jazirian and Asmodeus?) create Mechanus and create three mediators to ensure it remains balanced (PSMC, 69).

*Eons later, Tharizdun encounters the shard of evil and is corrupted into madness. The obyriths encourage Tharizdun to plant the shard of evil in the Astral Plane. Tharizdun does so, creating the Abyss from primal chaos. The obyriths enter the Abyss from their own realm as it is consumed and destroyed (Demonomicon, 7). The leShay possibly flee the dying universe of the obyriths at this time (Epic Level Handbook, 202). Tharizdun and the obyriths go to war, as the shard of evil makes Tharizdun far more powerful than they had anticipated. The war is a stalemate (Demonomicon, 7).

*Some of the primordials, pure beings of the elemental planes, are corrupted by the evil of the shard, becoming the Princes of Elemental Evil. The shard is eventually claimed by the obyrith Obox-ob. A war over the shard causes the shard to be lost in the Grand Abyss (Demonomicon, Cool.

*Calling himself the Elder Elemental Eye and posing as a primordial, Tharizdun marshals the Princes of Elemental Evil and other primordials in a war against the gods, which becomes known as the Dawn War. Tharizdun is imprisoned by the combined might of the gods. The Dawn War continues (Demonomicon, Cool. Asmodeus is one of the guardians of Tharizdun's prison(Demonomicon, 9).

*Servants of Asmodeus discover method of transforming petitioners into tanar'ri and baatezu (Hellbound: The Dark of the War, 13). The obyriths imitate Asmodeus's technique and transform mortal souls into the first tanar'ri. Fiends on both sides of the conflict begin corrupting mortals in order to gain new souls to transform into more of their kind, fueling the Dawn War (Hellbound: The Dark of the War, 14). Demogorgon is the first of the tanar'ri, created by the Queen of Chaos from mortal fears. Other primal tanar'ri created include Miska the Wolf-Spider (Dragon #357, 21).

*During an eclipse on the plains of Pazunia, the Queen of Chaos cows most of her rivals under her banner, defeating Obox-ob and giving the title of Prince of Demons to Miska the Wolf-Spider. With an alliance between the Queen of Chaos and the Princes of Elemental Evil, the Dawn War reaches a new height. (FC1, 106, and Demonomicon, Cool.

*Fiends discover Sigil and attempt to use it as a launching pad in the Dawn War. The Lady of Pain flays those who get out of line, preserving her city's status as neutral ground (Hellbound: The Dark of the War, 14)

*The first Battle of the Field of Nettles between tanar'ri under Miska's command and devils under the command of Asmodeus (Hellbound: The Dark of the War, 14; extrapolated with information from FC1 and FC2).

*Asmodeus signs the Pact Primeval with the other powers of Law, establishing his right to claim lawful evil souls (FC2, 5).

*At its height, the Wind Duke empire controls all the inner planes, as well as countless mortal worlds. The empire of the obyriths also expands to countless mortal worlds (FC1, 106; Also Dungeon #129, 40)

*Battle of Pesh on Oerth ("In the shadow of White Plume Mountain"). Miska the Wolf-Spider is imprisoned in Pandemonium. In the aftermath, the obyriths are overthrown by the tanar'ri and eladrins, and the tanar'ri become the rulers of the Abyss (FC1, 106).

*Most of the primordials allied with the forces of Chaos are imprisoned by the gods and the Dawn War comes to an end. On Toril, the Shadow Epoch gives way to the Days of Thunder (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, 42).

*In the aftermath of the Dawn War, Asmodeus is counciled by Pazuzu. He seeks out the shard of pure evil and creates his ruby rod from a sliver of it. Armed with his shard and his infernal army, hardened by the Dawn War, he conquers the plane of Baator and establishes himself as king (Demonomicon, 9). Conflict with the demons over the shard of evil inspires the Blood War (Demonomicon, 9).

*Days of Thunder. Beginning approximately 36,370 years ago, the sarrukh begin their rise to civilization (Serpent Kingdoms, 186).

*Demogorgon creates the khaasta. After thousands of years of servitude, he sets them free. Many fall into the service of Sess'innek (Serpent Kingdoms, 38).

*35,470 years ago: Fall of the sarrukh empire of Okath on Toril. Sess'innek sends a demonic invasion into the Material Plane in retribution for sarrukh attempts at enslaving the khaasta (Serpent Kingdoms, 38 and 186).

*32,370 years ago: The Tearfall on Toril. Fighting a losing war against the giants created by Annam, the batrachi summon a primordial, Asgoroth the World Shaper, from her imprisonment. She hurls an "ice moon" to the surface of the world, creating the Sea of Fallen Stars and ushering in an ice age. The world of Abeir-Toril is divided into two worlds, Abeir and Toril, and Abeir is given to the primordials so that Toril will no longer be theatened. (Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, 41)

*31,370 years ago: The Godswar between the Seldarine and Anti-Seldarine comes to an end when the goddess Araushnee is unmasked as the instigator. Araushnee is transformed into the demoness Lolth and banished to the Abyss. She enslaves Kiaransalee and drives Ghaunadaur to the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze. (Demihuman Deities, 26; Lost Empires of Faerun, 51)

*12,000 years ago: Illithids flee to the city of Oryndoll from Glyth (3e Underdark, 169). Gith's rebellion possibly immediately prior to this, since the illithids are clearly terrified of something. "Immediately after arriving, they burrow underground as far as they could." During the illithid empire's height, Sigil said to be "bejeweled." (A Guide to the Astral Plane, 44).

*The Proclaimation of Two Skies divides the githyanki and githzerai races (PSMC, 48; AGttAP, 46; see also the Planescape: Torment video game).

*A "psionic devastator" used by the githzerai against their githyanki enemies may have awakened psychic potential in Athas's races (Black Spine, Adventure Book Two, page 4).

*11,370 years ago: The Descent of the Drow (Lost Empires of Faerun, 52).

*10,000 years ago: Shekelor dies on his return to Pandemonium (ITC, 23) Vhostym, young for a githvyrik, is born. He is alive shortly after Gith's rebellion (Dawn of Night by Paul S. Kemp, page 5). I'm going to be generous and consider 2,000 years "shortly," or else assume that Vhostym is more like 12,000 years old. It's possible that this means that Gith's rebellion was closer to 10,000 years ago than 12,000, but I think it fits better with the settlement of Oryndoll above, and is close enough to it.

*The present day (in this timeline): 1370 DR on Toril, or 590 CY on Oerth, or 130 in the reign of Factol Hashkar in Sigil. Tales From the Infinite Staircase/Of Duty & Deity. The Faction War begins.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Meh, I don't really like most of the 4E fluff, though. I'll probably use some of the timeline dates, though. How much of the Shard of Evil fluff is from 4E?

Also, the fluff on Cryonax (I've looked it up) contradicts that of 3x which hints that he sided with Law, while in 4E he was among the "Primordials" imprisoned by the gods (thus siding with Chaos in 4E, obviously)

Likewise, The bit about Tharizdun marshalling the Archomentals against the gods directly contradicts earlier editions which all but state that the Princes were too young to remember the battle between Tharizdun and the gods (otherwise, they wouldn't be attempting to release him, since the attempt in the past was a coalition between ALL the gods and quasipowers of the time to prevent Tharizdun from destroying the world)

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Hyena of Ice wrote:
Meh, I don't really like most of the 4E fluff, though.

I don't either, mostly, but I thought I'd put it together here. I kind of regretted it immediately afterwards.

Quote:
How much of the Shard of Evil fluff is from 4E?

All of it, though I wrote a thing connecting it to the 333 Gems of Tharizdun, and also the Black Diamond that corrupted the Queen of Air and Darkness, and the Crystal of Ebon Flame, the Heart of Darkness that the General of Gehenna used to purify the yugoloth race, and Asmodeus's ruby rod (which 4e already connects to it). There's this theme of evil gemstones connected to Tharizdun throughout 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th edition.

Quote:
Also, the fluff on Cryonax (I've looked it up) contradicts that of 3x which hints that he sided with Law, while in 4E he was among the "Primordials" imprisoned by the gods (thus siding with Chaos in 4E, obviously)

Yeah, true, and I think some of the air-related evil archomentals sided with the Wind Dukes at first, too. Which doesn't mean they weren't corrupted in the same way, and the idea that the evil archomentals are connected to Tharizdun in some way goes back as far as 2e.

Quote:
Likewise, The bit about Tharizdun marshalling the Archomentals against the gods directly contradicts earlier editions which all but state that the Princes were too young to remember the battle between Tharizdun and the gods

Yeah, although that's pretty recent canon, dating back just to the Monster Manual IV in 3e. I do think it makes more sense, but I'm not that worried about it. In fourth edition, note that the primordials still don't know Tharizdun's real goals. They think he's one of them (when he very much isn't), so effectively there's no change.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

I don't either, mostly, but I thought I'd put it together here. I kind of regretted it immediately afterwards.
Nah, it's fine, man.

and the idea that the evil archomentals are connected to Tharizdun in some way goes back as far as 2e.
Yeah, but 2E and 3E state they are his progency.

Yeah, although that's pretty recent canon, dating back just to the Monster Manual IV in 3e
Wait, really? *checks*
Uh, no it doesn't. MMIV specifically states that the Princes are too young to remember that war. Or is this what you were referring to as being recent canon? Because while it was not stated outright before, it was certainly hinted at all the way back to 2E.

SO here's the bits I plan to encorporate:

*According to myth, Chaos is the first force to form. Law arises to combat it (FC2, 4).

*The conflict between Law and Chaos boils over from the Inner Planes to the still-forming Outer and Material Planes (FC1, 106).

*Good wrestles with Evil, and Law with Chaos, and Neutrality lies between. None of the five forces can gain an advantage, so they create minions to serve them. Evil creates the baernaloths, while Good, Neutrality, Law, and Chaos create their own servitors to fight for them (Hellbound: The Dark of the War, page Cool. The champions of Law include Asmodeus (FC2, 4). Asmodeus is initially known as Ahriman, and his twin is known as Jazirian (Guide to Hell, 2). Jazirian and Ahriman create the Outlands, the Unity of Rings, the Rule of Threes, and the Center of All precepts (GtH, 2). The powers of creation (Jazirian and Asmodeus?) create Mechanus and create three mediators to ensure it remains balanced (PSMC, 69).

*Servants of Asmodeus discover method of transforming petitioners into tanar'ri and baatezu (Hellbound: The Dark of the War, 13). The obyriths imitate Asmodeus's technique and transform mortal souls into the first tanar'ri. Fiends on both sides of the conflict begin corrupting mortals in order to gain new souls to transform into more of their kind, fueling the Dawn War (Hellbound: The Dark of the War, 14). Demogorgon is the first of the tanar'ri, created by the Queen of Chaos from mortal fears. Other primal tanar'ri created include Miska the Wolf-Spider (Dragon #357, 21).

*During an eclipse on the plains of Pazunia, the Queen of Chaos cows most of her rivals under her banner, defeating Obox-ob and giving the title of Prince of Demons to Miska the Wolf-Spider. With an alliance between the Queen of Chaos and the Princes of Elemental Evil, the Dawn War reaches a new height. (FC1, 106, and Demonomicon, Cool.

*Fiends discover Sigil and attempt to use it as a launching pad in the Dawn War. The Lady of Pain flays those who get out of line, preserving her city's status as neutral ground (Hellbound: The Dark of the War, 14)

*The first Battle of the Field of Nettles between tanar'ri under Miska's command and devils under the command of Asmodeus (Hellbound: The Dark of the War, 14; extrapolated with information from FC1 and FC2).

*Asmodeus signs the Pact Primeval with the other powers of Law, establishing his right to claim lawful evil souls (FC2, 5).

*At its height, the Wind Duke empire controls all the inner planes, as well as countless mortal worlds. The empire of the obyriths also expands to countless mortal worlds (FC1, 106; Also Dungeon #129, 40)

*Battle of Pesh on Oerth ("In the shadow of White Plume Mountain"). Miska the Wolf-Spider is imprisoned in Pandemonium. In the aftermath, the obyriths are overthrown by the tanar'ri and eladrins, and the tanar'ri become the rulers of the Abyss (FC1, 106).

*Days of Thunder. Beginning approximately 36,370 years ago, the sarrukh begin their rise to civilization (Serpent Kingdoms, 186).

*Demogorgon creates the khaasta. After thousands of years of servitude, he sets them free. Many fall into the service of Sess'innek (Serpent Kingdoms, 38).

*35,470 years ago: Fall of the sarrukh empire of Okath on Toril. Sess'innek sends a demonic invasion into the Material Plane in retribution for sarrukh attempts at enslaving the khaasta (Serpent Kingdoms, 38 and 186).

*32,370 years ago: The Tearfall on Toril. Fighting a losing war against the giants created by Annam, the batrachi summon a primordial, Asgoroth the World Shaper, from her imprisonment. She hurls an "ice moon" to the surface of the world, creating the Sea of Fallen Stars and ushering in an ice age. The world of Abeir-Toril is divided into two worlds, Abeir and Toril, and Abeir is given to the primordials so that Toril will no longer be theatened. (Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, 41) (I'll use parts of this, anyway)

*31,370 years ago: The Godswar between the Seldarine and Anti-Seldarine comes to an end when the goddess Araushnee is unmasked as the instigator. Araushnee is transformed into the demoness Lolth and banished to the Abyss. She enslaves Kiaransalee and drives Ghaunadaur to the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze. (Demihuman Deities, 26; Lost Empires of Faerun, 51)

*12,000 years ago: Illithids flee to the city of Oryndoll from Glyth (3e Underdark, 169). Gith's rebellion possibly immediately prior to this, since the illithids are clearly terrified of something. "Immediately after arriving, they burrow underground as far as they could." During the illithid empire's height, Sigil said to be "bejeweled." (A Guide to the Astral Plane, 44).

*The Proclaimation of Two Skies divides the githyanki and githzerai races (PSMC, 48; AGttAP, 46; see also the Planescape: Torment video game).

*A "psionic devastator" used by the githzerai against their githyanki enemies may have awakened psychic potential in Athas's races (Black Spine, Adventure Book Two, page 4).

*11,370 years ago: The Descent of the Drow (Lost Empires of Faerun, 52).

*10,000 years ago: Shekelor dies on his return to Pandemonium (ITC, 23) Vhostym, young for a githvyrik, is born. He is alive shortly after Gith's rebellion (Dawn of Night by Paul S. Kemp, page 5). I'm going to be generous and consider 2,000 years "shortly," or else assume that Vhostym is more like 12,000 years old. It's possible that this means that Gith's rebellion was closer to 10,000 years ago than 12,000, but I think it fits better with the settlement of Oryndoll above, and is close enough to it.

*The present day (in this timeline): 1370 DR on Toril, or 590 CY on Oerth, or 130 in the reign of Factol Hashkar in Sigil. Tales From the Infinite Staircase/Of Duty & Deity. The Faction War begins.
------------------------------------------------
I also plan to encorporate the Violet Dawn timeline in, but so far I only have one date:
-30DR: The mortal races of Avadnu mistakenly believe the voidspawn to have been brought to extinction, as the scant few remaining on Avadnu have gone into hiding (and the mortals are unaware of The Void)

I'd probably... hold on let me look at my notes...
Yeah, the height of the Sulwynaari empire was probably between -4-5000DR, with the origin of the race being around -10,000DR like the other elven subraces.
I'm not sure where I'd place the fall of the Daegir at yet, but the sealing away of Avadnu was probably around -130DR, which would place the Time of Chaos (Xxythwars) beginning probably 20 years earlier. The Fall of the Daegir was probably between 50-500 years before this.
So that leaves....

-- -10,000DR: creation of the Sulwynaari and creation of the Daegir (an artifact in the form of a celestial body which contained a powerful True Mistji whose power was tapped to create the Sulwynaari)
-4~5000DR: The Sulwynaari empire reaches its height
-- -200~650DR: The Fall of the Daegir; Temulea finally learns of his children's (the 13 gods of Avadnu) betrayal and the creation of the Sulwynaari. Enraged, he goes on a tirade across the heavens, hunting down his children for punishment. Only Krüg, Father of Battles, is foolish enough to take him on. Krüg loses the fight, and Temulea, in his wrath, slays him; Krüg's blood falls upon Avadnu, and the Skarren race are born from the fragments of his divine essence. The act of killing his own son drives Temulea insane, and he goes on a tear of destruction across the heavens. In a desperate effort to prevent him from tearing the heavens apart, the remaining 12 gods cast the Daegir to Avadnu. However, in their hastiness, the gods fail to notice that Morindalien, one of the twin moon gods, is standing directly in the Daegir's path. He is unable to escape in time, and is sundered as the Daegir tears through him. The fall of the Daegir forever transforms the Mistji from incorporeal spirit beings to mortal beings of flesh.
-- -200~650DR: The War of the Daegir: The Children of Avadnu know of the Daegir's power, and rush to the site of its fall to claim it. The Sulwynaari and Zeidian in particular wish to claim it, and a war between them soon erupts after a Zeidian warrior known to history only as "Kar’lil-arak" (most closely translatable to "The One Who is Lost"), one of the few mortals foolish enough to look upon the Daegir as it fell, became enthralled by it, but was too late to claim it before the Sulwynaari. Mad with greed and transformed into a Threnegul by daring to gaze upon the falling Daegir, he tore a path of destruction, slaying everyone and everything he encountered in a mad search for the artifact. After a few years, the war goes into a lull as Kar’lil-arak becomes a loner (abandoned by anyone he didn't kill, if any such individuals even existed) but cooling off a bit.
-- -150DR: The Time of Chaos-- The War of the Daegir is interrupted when a gate to The Void opens within Avadnu's oceans, and hordes of Voidspawn emerge to destroy the mortal races and all that Temulea created.
-- -130DR: The Voidspawn are defeated by the concentrated effort of all Avadnu's races, including even the pacifistic Mistji, led by the Sulwynaari arcanist Mystalithus, who removes the Daegir shard from around his neck and shatters it, using its power to banish the Voidspawn back to The Void. The Time of Chaos comes to an end, but at the cost of civilization; all civilizations of each and every mortal race collapses due to the war.
-- -130DR:Irunean, in coalition with Celestian and Ptah, create the Demiplane of Doors, placing a seal over Avadnu and The Void. Avadnu is separated from the rest of the Multiverse, as is The Void, and both are separated from one another. This is done both to protect Avadnu from the void and to quarantine it, so that the corrupting influences of the Voidspawn do not leak out into the rest of the Multiverse.
-- -30DR: The last of the openly aggressive Voidspawn are wiped out on Avadnu, and the mortal races erroneously believe that they have been extirpated entirely.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Hyena of Ice wrote:
Yeah, but 2E and 3E state they are his progency.

They state that they believe they're his progeny, or that Tharizdun claims it, but I think the implication is that they're wrong, and this is just Tharizdun deceiving them in order to manipulate them. As the god of entropy, I doubt he's capable of having offspring. It'd be contrary to his essential nature.

For example, what the PSMCIII said was, "The Princes of Elemental Evil are said to have a relationship with the mysterious being known only as the Elder Elemental God. Supposedly, some of the princes are that being's offspring, making them queer siblings to say the least." And Dragon #347 says, "The evil god known as the Elder Elemental Eye claims to have sired most of the Elemental Princes of Evil, making them strange siblings indeed." Both sound pretty skeptical to me. And MMIV says, "The Elemental Princes believe that the being known as the Elemental Eye is their forebear... Unknown to them, the Elder Elemental Eye is actually a front for the god Tharizdun... The ever-greedy Princes of Elemental Evil, too young to remember that ancient war, allowed their ambitions to blind them to Tharizdun's deception." Since we know that Tharizdun is deceiving them about who he is, assuming he's misled them about their paternity sounds pretty likely.

It's possible that there was once a separate entity known as the Elder Elemental Eye who truly was the parent of the Elemental Princes of Evil, but Tharizdun destroyed that entity and took its place. Or the Eye may have been a hoax all along. Regardless, he is not the being that they think their father is.

Quote:
Uh, no it doesn't. MMIV specifically states that the Princes are too young to remember that war. Or is this what you were referring to as being recent canon?

Yes, that's what I meant. The MMIV is comparatively recent. But if they're too young to remember his imprisonment, I don't know how they'd know if they were related to him for certain.

What I quoted above was basically the entirety of the pre-4e canon on the subject, so I think the MMIV is the only place that either implies or states the Elemental Princes of Evil never knew the Elder Elemental God before his imprisonment. It might be easier for him to fool them if they don't remember who their forebear was, but it also might be easier to fool them if he were free at the time, so I'm pretty agnostic on the issue. They could've stumbled upon the Demiplane of Imprisonment and listened to his whispers and dreams long after his incarceration, or he might have shown up disguised as the Elder Eye and told them lies while rallying them to war.

My biggest problem with the 4e canon is that pre-4e implies the war between Law and Chaos was something that was pretty much always going on since those forces first existed, before the Outer Planes were even fully formed, while the 4e Demonomicon makes it sound as if Tharizdun personally started the war. I'd make that softer; there was always conflict between the two forces because they conflict by nature, but the much later "Dawn War" between the elemental princes and gods might have been to some extent Tharizdun's idea. And the Dawn War isn't exactly the same as the Law-Chaos War, and wasn't precisely about either law and chaos, or good and evil. I dunno. The idea of a god-primordial war is kind of a nasty kludge, I admit, but it's not entirely incompatible with everything else. I think it's best to think of it as a comparatively local thing, like the Titanomachy or the war between the Aesir and Jotuns.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

Don't forget the war between the (Greco-Roman) Protogenoi and the Titans. Probably at the same time there were wars between other Protogenoi lineages with the draconic and scalykind powers.

As for the Princes, Dragon 353 states that the Princes of Elemental Good were spawned by the will of the planes to off-set the imbalance towards evil resulting from the evil princes. To me, this suggests that they are not products of natural birth. (also, while I agree with you that creation/procreation would be contrary to Tharizdun's nature, at the same time, Dragon 353 seems to suggest that the princes would have had an ultimately destructive impact on the Elemental Planes had the Princes of Elemental Good not sprung up to counter them. Though this doesn't explain the lack of an elemental princess of good Ice or Vacuum to counter Cryonax and Sun-Sing.)

"Legends say that the Elemental Planes themselves birthed the Princes of Elemental Good in the Age Before Ages, to serve as a balancing force to prevent their evil counterparts from becoming too powerful."

In Dragon 347 it states "Lending credence to this alleged paternity, small cults of Tharizdun have successfully made pacts with the evil archomentals over the millenia with varying degrees of success."

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

I've also thought for the past few days about what the Elder Elemental Eye aspect of Tharizdun actually is (physically). There is no way that it would be an ooze-like being (composed of organic materials) like Ghaunadaur, Juiblex, or Tharizdun's true form-- if he were, then the Archomentals wouldn't consider him to be their sire-- elementals, after all, view themselves as superior to beings of flesh (which yes is AT LEAST hinted at in canonical sources). An ooze is still an organic creature, even if it lacks complex anatomy, thus making it "fleshling", technically.
I considered if the Elder Eye would be similar to an Ooze Paraelemental, but this made no sense to me-- with the exception of Cryonax, the Princes consider Paraelementals to be lesser creatures. Likewise, Ooze is the combination of water and earth, which Cryonax likely views as an abomination (water corrupted with loathesome earth)
So, I have determined that the Elder Elemental Eye is like an Omnimental. It possesses an ooze-like appearance/consistency, but is composed of non-organic material from all four elements. This is the only conclusion that makes any sense, and the only form that the Princes could possibly view as their sire.
This would mean however, that Ghaunadaur is either a wholly separate being from Tharizdun (which is how I view it), or is a lesser aspect of the Elder Elemental Eye aspect, representing a biological being-- an outsider of Earth and Water.

Now, whether the Elder Elemental Eye is an original aspect created by Tharizdun or a former Omnimental power absorbed by him is anyone's guess, but Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil states that the five Princes were created solely as a failsafe should Tharizdun be imprisoned.
The more I think about it, the more your suggestion of a subsumed Power being the source of the Elemental Eye seems likely. However, I believe that the creation of the Archomentals occurred after this omnimental power was subsumed.
As for their creation being contrary to Tharizdun's portfolio, I had always assumed it was all a matter of secrecy and delusion-- that is, creating beings which *aside from destroying the good-evil balance on the Elemental planes* are entirely naturalized, even indigenous to the multiverse-- this would throw off any suspicion that they might be connected to Tharizdun, and indeed, even the created beings themselves have been tricked.

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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

The Elder Elemental God has two aspects in Monster Mythology (which treated it as a separate entity from the Dark God/Tharizdun, but the description is still useful even if you consider them the same).

Monster Mythology wrote:
The "avatar" of this god can appear in several forms: As a huge, mottled, tentacled being some 20' in length, resembling a vast slime/slug cross; or as a 24' tall pillar of vast elemental force with a body of burning magma, radiating a steamy haze.

Note that the tentacled form is the form taken by some of the god's ancient worshipers. Earlier in Monster Mythology, it says, "There are many tales of its being worshipped by elder races, who may predate the coming of other gods and races to the Prime Material Plane; these beings were shapechanging, polymorphous slime-beings of genius intelligence and uniformly evil nature. These ineffably vile spawns of evil were wiped out by the human and demihuman creator gods, save for a few places close to the core of a handful of worlds, where they are usually either in hibernation or gibbering insanely in the most desolate barrens."

These entities may, and I'm just spitballing here, be some kind of Far Realm abomination, a creation of the aboleths or draedens, the draedens themselves, or something else entirely. In any case, it's probably just a form the Elder Elemental Eye took in order to be more familiar to its mortal worshipers, in the days before its banishment.

It's also possible that the slime/slug form was Tharizdun's true shape before his corruption. Perhaps Tharizdun was a member of the ancient slime/slug race who became a god. Tharizdun's present-day avatar is described as a "wraithform without a solid body... black and faceless. It wears a spectral cloak and glides soundlessly."

The magma/steam form is meant to represent a combination of fire and earth (magma) and water and air (steam), so I think your omnimental guess is in key with Carl Sargent's intentions. "Priests may devote themselves to revering all elemental aspects of the god, or specializing in a single element (thus, revering the element of fire, air, earth, or water)..."

Monster Mythology also states (page 60) "Readers of FOR2, The Drow of the Underdark, will find a specific form for this god [the Elder Elemental God] in the Forgotten Realms, that of Ghaunadaur. The version presented there is one which fuses the identity of the Elder Elemental God with that of an entity which appears to be its servant in some manner, Juiblex."

On the other hand, Demihuman Deities said that Lolth drove Ghaunadaur from the Abyss when she was banished there, which implies that the Abyss was originally Ghaunadaur's home. If that's the case, he may be an aspect of Juiblex rather than an aspect of the Elder Elemental Eye. Whatever he was, he must have been weaker than Lolth was, probably a mere demigoddess at the time since she lost almost all of her divinity when she was transformed into a tanar'ri.

While Tharizdun may have reason to create something in order to deceive others, I think the god of entropy would probably be incapable of doing so directly, no matter how destructive its servitors turned out to be. Likely he would have to use an intermediary to do the actual work of creation and corrupt the resulting creations. So I think that first the original Elder Elemental Eye would have created the archomentals, and second Tharizdun would have "created" them as princes of evil by corrupting them with his power. It's conceivable, though, that by subsuming another god (or primordial) Tharizdun could have acquired some creative powers from that god, at least until it was completely digested.

Jem
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Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?

A slug with tentacles reminds me of a ciliated paramecium. That it appears as a giant may simply be a factor of the size of current-day viewers, viewing a god which was once several times the size of an average, single-celled worshiper.

An intelligent bacterium, of course, is going to be some sort of combination of an archaic mortal species and some kind of elemental, psionic, or outsider spirit, taking the earliest possible opportunity to seize a living form.

Interestingly, depending on how one interprets mitotic reproduction, the originals of these worshipers could still be alive somewhere in the seas of the worlds they first inhabited: mortal, not undead, not elvish, not construct, real flesh and blood, but unaging, or able to renew through division. Or they exist as colony minds inhabiting a fine dispersion of their surviving descendants, riding in the blood and guts of newer creatures.

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